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Discuss current issues and events happening in the parks.
threedogs
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Hunting

Unread post by threedogs » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:53 pm

{Moderator's note: This topic was split from the Poaching thread}

Are permits for hunting white rhino still being allowed in 2013?

Is it true that in the bordering Timbavati which shares an unfenced boundary with Kruger National Park, that one can pay la large sum of money to shoot a white rhino? (Not to mention the rest of the Big 5).
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Re: Poaching

Unread post by Meandering Mouse » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:57 am

threedogs wrote:Are permits for hunting white rhino still being allowed in 2013?

Is it true that in the bordering Timbavati which shares an unfenced boundary with Kruger National Park, that one can pay la large sum of money to shoot a white rhino? (Not to mention the rest of the Big 5).


No.

There are many privately owned reserves, Klasserie Nature Reserve for instance, but these are not hunting lodges. Most reserves in that area are fully focused on upmarket eco tourism and I think they would not like to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

Hunting areas have to be properly enclosed. This is why canned lion hunting is so very evil, it is not a fair hunting practice. The animal has no way to escape. There are hunting methods using a fairer track and trail, but this is confined to private land. Trespassing onto other territory is absolutely a criminal offence.

Hunting needs to be properly contained, even for the safety of other tourists. Carrying a high caliber weapon can do a lot of damage if it goes off in an area not specifically set aside for hunting with all the correct precautions.

Of course, criminal activity is another matter. Ironically, Rhino hunting farms are probably more protected from criminal poaching. Sadly, syndicates have abused this system as well.
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Re: Poaching

Unread post by threedogs » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:21 am

I'm sorry MM but sadly from further research it seems that Timbavati, Klaserie and Umbabat all offer hunting and at least the first two offer hunting of the Big5 and also Sable and Roan amongst a whole list of other species. Hunting outfitters openly offer this on current public websites and state the fact that they are in the Timbavati on land sharing an UNFENCED boundary with Kruger. I have heard that two permits for white rhino are available in the Timbavati this year but I am trying to determine if that is rumour or fact. At this point in time it seems true from research today.
I could post links here but rules forbid it. However you can google if you can stomach the photos and boasting of offering excellent white rhino specimens and leopard etc etc. I am afraid I have already nearly been physically ill once already today just trying to get a handle on this.
It seems the juxtaposition of hunting on these neighbouring KNP reserves has been a concern to conservation NGO's for some recent years.
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Re: Poaching

Unread post by Meandering Mouse » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:01 am

Threedogs, the hunting areas not part of the greater Kruger. Unfenced can mean many things.

Sable can be hunted in many areas, including the Free State. I have seen Sable selling many times as venison from hunting farms.

Limpopo has many hunting farms. Mapungubwe still has evidence of a hunting Lodge which is now part of the reserve.
Last edited by Meandering Mouse on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Poaching

Unread post by JenB » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:09 am

Threedogs, the areas you are referring to is not under SANParks' control and SANParks do not issue hunting licenses.

How is this relevant to this forum? :)
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Re: Poaching

Unread post by Meandering Mouse » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:16 am

Jenb has highlighted that Sanparks is not involved in hunting.

Hunting is a large industry in South Africa. As much as I have my personal reservations, it feeds many people and keeps a section of the economy alive. Hunting also has conservation value. Hunting is not the problem, abuse of the system is.

Our democracy is still young, but hunting is an area that has improved legislation. It needs more attention, I agree, but if anything, the situation has tightened.
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Re: Poaching

Unread post by Rooies » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:38 am

Many of the hunting outfitters are misleading the public. About two years ago an outfitter was caught out by the forumites when he advertized that he has got an exclusive right to hunt elephants INSIDE Kruger. Most of the hunting and conservation fraternities know about Kruger and its 100 pounders. The misleading advert immediately attracts the hunters but, the hunting actually takes place outside Kruger. The poor hunter brags about his excursions into Kruger while the poor sod was nowhere near Kruger.

The misuse of the name 'Kruger' is not restricted to the hunters. The tourist establishments are also relying on the name. When you do a search on accommodation IN Kruger, you get a million hits. But, they are actually OUTSIDE Kruger.
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Re: Poaching

Unread post by gmlsmit » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:48 am

May I please remind readers of this that the fences between the KNP and the Private Reserves, so there is nothing stopping any of the big 5 wandering across into the Private Reserves and then becoming part of a hunting package.

The fences between the KNP and Mozambique have also fallen into neglect, many parts have been removed, therefore our animals can also wander across and be hunted in the Sabi Game reserve in Mozambique.

It is stated that hunting permits for Rhino are not issued any longer, good news as approximately a year ago one was issued for a Rhino to be hunted in the Northern Natal the hunt cost in excess of $100 000.
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Re: Poaching

Unread post by Meandering Mouse » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:03 am

Thanks Smitie :thumbs_up: I did seem to remember a moratorium on Rhino hunting, but I was not sure.

Fences are a double edge sword, keep them up and animals die of possible starvation, take them down and the traffic can go both ways.

Bottom line is that Sanparks does not issue hunting licenses, or allow hunting on Sanpark's land.

An interesting point in history is that Kruger would have no existance without hunting. Many people only showed tolerance for such a waste of land because they thought it was to protect hunting.

There is the story of James Stevnson Hamilton entertaining a member of cabinet. The conversation went something like this

Member of cabinet: So how many animals have you shot lately?

Stevenson Hamilton: None, I have not shot an animal for years.

Member of Cabinet: So what's wrong with you? Are you a poor shot?
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Re: Poaching

Unread post by gmlsmit » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:30 am

Agreed SANParks does not issue hunting licences and also do not permit hunting within our National Parks.

The main beneficiaries of the dropping/neglect of fences were the owners of the private Game Reserves and those on the adjoining land.

Fences were erected mainly to keep the game animals in (protection) and then acting as a barrier against the spreading of disease (Foot and mouth, Corridor etc.).

The conversation again proves that very few politicians really know much if anything why Conservation Areas are required. Also very few of them really care, too many people even today still see an animal on the hoof as a potential meal/trophy or just sport.

However I may also mention that Minister Piet Grobler and Gen Smuts cared a lot, that is why the Kruger National Park was proclaimed, also the person, although denied today by those being politically correct after the man whom the Sabi and Shingwedzi Game Reserve was renamed.
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Re: Poaching

Unread post by Scipio » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:49 am

Even though Kruger does not issue hunting permits, I know that the following animal are hunted in Klaserie, Timbivati, Balule(Private Game reserve) amongst others.

Klaserie: Big5 , all antilope local, Crocodile, Hippo, Warthog, caracal, different bird specie....
Balule: Big5, all antilope local, Crocodile, Hippo, Warthog, caracal, different bird specie....
Timbivati:Big5, all antilope local, Crocodile, Hippo, Warthog, caracal, different bird specie....AND Dog hunting until a , well, maybe still.

But this has nothing to do with poaching. :slap:

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Poaching

Unread post by threedogs » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:50 am

From the latest brochure of sesafaris:

Timbavati, Klaserie and Umbabat form the
Association of Private Nature Reserves. The APNR
is over 300 000 acres in extent, and is based
on the Eastern side of the world famous Kruger
National Park, which is situated in the Limpopo and
Mpumalanga Provinces of South Africa. There is no
boundary fence between the Kruger National Park
and the APNR. Together, these areas constitute the
Greater Kruger Park, which is over 5 Million acres in
size, which is bigger than some countries.
The Timbavati Private Nature Reserve is a pristine
environment with no domestic animals and no
boundary fences or internal fences. This is the
wildest hunting available in South Africa .

White Rhino:
The APNR and Kruger National Park are probably
the last areas in Africa where unfenced Rhino
occur. It is not uncommon to encounter a 25+
inch rhino bull. Hunting rhino here is a privilege
that few get to experience.

From 'hunting trails' current site:
Timbavati
The Timbavati APNR borders the famed Kruger National Park. Here one can hunt all the members of the big five. This area produces some of the best buffalo trophies taken anywhere in Africa today and also offers excellent hunting for leopard and free ranging lion. One can expect to harvest a record class white rhino in here.

This from a local south african tourism website discussing the issue in July last year.

HOEDSPRUIT & GREATER KRUGER – News of four rhino earmarked for legal hunts within the APNR (Associated Private Nature Reserves) has created heated opinions and a wave of distress through many in the greater Hoedspruit community. People are enraged and outspoken at the fact that much fundraising and awareness has been created to ‘save’ our rhino, yet those (in the APNR) who are supposed to be guarding our rhino, are now justifying the hunting of rhino for purposes of raising money to protect them amongst other things. An aggravation is that the APNR form part of the Greater Kruger National Park.

I understand that hunting is strictly controlled. I understand that poaching is illegal, indiscriminate and uncontrolled. What I wanted to try to understand is how can I be sure that the money I donate to help save a rhino from being poached in KNP today is not someone's paid for trophy on the same unfenced tract of land tomorrow. In both cases money changes hands for the death of an animal.

The fences came down to allow the flow of animals back and forth. It is a legitimate question if I am donating money to anti-poaching.

Can someone please direct me to the Minister's release on the moratorium on rhino hunting permits if such is in place? Thank you.
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Re: Poaching

Unread post by Duke Ellieton » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:56 am

Hunting can take place in the Makuleke Concession which is in Northern Kruger. Hunting did take place in this concession from 2000 to 2003.

In theory it could take place again and the Makuleke people are motivating for just that.

You can read about it here

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Re: Poaching

Unread post by DinkyBird » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:01 am

Just a few pages back on this topic is the following media release which addresses the issuing of hunting permits etc. This is also on the website.

This topic is going 'off topic' - it is a topic for poaching, the mods will split it shortly.
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Re: Poaching

Unread post by Scipio » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:07 am

What Duke says is correct. There was talks with the Makuleke concession in 2009/2010 by a Buss. Person and 2 SANParks staff members to aquire hunting rights in the area. And before SANParks asks me to substantiate this allegation, I can name the names and is willing to make a sworn statement in a court of law to the effect.

I dont mean to discredit SANParks in this post, I am just mentioning a fact on a question asked. :thumbs_up:

But as stated, nothing to do with poaching, and all hunters are not skelms/bad guys. :thumbs_up:


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