Skip to content

SANParks.org Forums

View unanswered posts | View active topics






Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  Page 3 of 4
 [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:35 pm
Posts: 83
Location: I'd rather be in the bush !!!
Quote:
The Issue that I see is the shooting Rate either of Problem animals and Trophy hunting.
- I think here you talk in general - not applicable to Sanparks - It very, very seldom happens that problem animals are shot and that would only happen if there really are no other options. Trophy hunting is not done/allowed in any of the Sanparks reserves as far as I am aware of. Only done on private game farms.

Quote:
If this Scenario occur then you will digg you own grave, because the main foreign Visitors want to see the Game. If no Game occur you will loose this Visitors.
This is in a way actually very funny that you would even suggest that Sanparks are destroying populations af animals and dig their own grave :doh: Clearly you do not know the conservation efforts (and monitoring) that is going on in and around Sanparks. If there is some areas to improve - for sure let's all help them to improve and show that out to them - but wow statements like these are leaving me dumbstruck :doh: It's not only the foreign Visitor that wants to see The Game - do you maybe suggest we as South Africans stand for some other viewpoint :doh: ... or have another agenda - as to conserve and nurture our resources ?

Maybe I can suggest you take some time to familiarize yourself with the South African situation regarding politics, funding, conservation, expertise and the mandate and workings of Sanparks. I also believe in constructive criticism and believe me, I do that a lot to Sanparks, and others, where I see it necessary. I might even go as far as to say some of them are maybe even a bit annoyed with some of my statements/criticisms. My point is to rather get to know the situation before criticizing as some of your issues clearly shows a lack of understanding and what actually happens in and around Sanparks and their reserves, and SA in general. ..... And by the way I am not an employee of Sanparks but a Tourist to these Parks - just as you.
Quote:
So you are always dependend from the Tourist Statement.


The question/debate about privitisation has been brought up on various forums/topics.

Quote:
But because of the lack of money this is not an alternative for me.
I can recall that you somewhere stated that a problem is there to be solved, and that funds could be sourced if the will is there ? Maybe you can
Quote:
I can imagine that certain German Universities would be happy.
contact some of those Universities to fund you if you are keen ?

I want to make it clear that I also believe that there is always room for improvement and some areas needs attention - my concern is the generalization and misconceptions portrayed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:59 am 
Offline
Guru
Guru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 754
Cybertrackers is a method of GPS field data collection. Makes it possible for rangers who are doing patrols to capture observations on a daily basis also used by section rangers, the type of patroll is also indicated. Movement of animals are monitored by making use of satellite navigation.
Adapted for each area/Park which contain a build in map for the specific area,so each observation is pin pointed on the map,when downloaded at the end of the day it gives an overview of the sightings for that day,as well as in word format.
You can record everything with this device.
For instance if you want to look at the observation of leopards,their kills,their movements for a year,you simply click a button and it shows you on the map everything,from here you interpret the data.These cybertrackers are like I said used for everything,densities for alien species of plants for instance are recorded by making use of them, and then from there planning to look at eradication of these, wants again you have a map in front of you and you can see the distribution of different types of alien plants, a holistic approach for everything.

Some more answers from our Large mammal ecologist,Dr Sam Ferreira
A summary of challenges have already been given to you.
Monitoring is one of those challenges,and part of priority definitions make Sanparks use of different methods.
Sanparks conservation actions are based on caused of problems and not the effects there of.
In Augrabies is large mammals a important aspect of the overhead goals, and tourism and conservation action mainly focus on the unique geology and waterfall. In this context is leopard relatively low on the priority list.
Formal defining of leopard dinamics is relatively challenging. In smaller parks where numbers are expected to be low the challence is much more higher. In these cases Sanparks approach to make use of observations as mentioned.

I will give you the estimates of leopards as soon as I get it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:35 pm
Posts: 83
Location: I'd rather be in the bush !!!
:thumbs_up: :thumbs_up: Thanks AG :thumbs_up: :thumbs_up:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:00 pm
Posts: 572
Location: Germany/ Greifswald
Hi AG,

It sound very intresting especially the GPS Marking.

Hi Jan,

Again please don´t be personal, otherwise I will go out of the discussion. If you are reading your Post, you tell me stupid without knowledge... . That is actually wrong. I do have a great Set of Background information^^.

First Statement, I assume you are living in South afrika, Do you? Then you should know it better. If an HWC occur they will get shot Immediatly. Some Farmers might be an Exception, but that is the minority. The System is as follows, when you are in South Africa and holding a Farm, and you recognise a development of an Problem Animal, you can declare it as problem animal and shoot it. It was very intresting, when I have done my studies for Trophy Hunting in Namibia even Nature Conservation groups said, "shoot this Problem Animal". Ok Namibia is not South Afrika, true, but I can Imagine that it works very similar. Therefor I don´t belive The shooting Problem animals are not seldom. The shooting Rates in the last years verfiy my statments... . Just for you Information in Timbavati there are certain Hunting Farms which are Linked to Kruger National Park. The Fence are not existing. The question will be how is the effeckt? Positiv? Negativ? As long we don´t have numbers we will not know it.

Ok that was also the second statement. Of Course you are right that everybody can increase. But still in Terms aof the lack of Predator Monitoring in Augrabies that makes me think. Because of the lack of numbers, I find it very difficult to belive if they are knowing if the Pop. is stable or not nor the Conflikt. They belive that there will be no conflikt, but is that the truth? Does every Farmer tell them by every incident? Honestly no Chnace. Lot of "knowledge" based on assumptions and that is bad. By the don´t mix it up. At the moment Ißm only talking about Augrabies and SANP there NOT OVERALL.

Of course you will be always dependend from the Voices of the Tourist. If you are doing a decision, and zhe Tourist don´t like it, they will saty away, till you change it (I ´m talking about majority). Sometime if you are working to long you will get working blind, meaning things whixh are for you normel, will be for an Tourist a desaster. I exagerate a bit but you know what I mean.

Ok About the Internship. I really hate the struckture where you have to pay to be able to work somewhere. There for I´m against it! You might be correckt If I really want to do it, then there could be a possibillity. But if this is the only way to participte I will go out. Paying for an Intership, well some People forgott something, it should be other way around, when we work we should gain money and not pay. But I accept the point that I will work without earning money, but to pay for that, sorry unbelivabel...

Don´t forgett for an private Person it will be always more difficult to built up a Network then a company. esspecially when we are dealing with money.

Befor I forgett. Ok I might have done a mistake, of course not only the foreign Visitors wat to see the Game also the South Africans. My mistake. Sorry. I mean both parties of course.

_________________
life is Game, you rather play or flee. I chose to play the Game.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:52 pm 
Offline
Guru
Guru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 754
Estimation of leopard numbers are 5.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:00 pm
Posts: 572
Location: Germany/ Greifswald
WOW :big_eyes: that is little number... . That doesn´t sound like a big and stable Population.

_________________
life is Game, you rather play or flee. I chose to play the Game.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:30 pm 
Offline
Guru
Guru
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 754
What would you regard as a big and stable population,for a park like Augrabies,your input will be appreciated.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:35 pm
Posts: 83
Location: I'd rather be in the bush !!!
Quote:
The System is as follows, when you are in South Africa and holding a Farm, and you recognise a development of an Problem Animal, you can declare it as problem animal and shoot it.
Surely we cannot attribute this to Sanparks ?

Quote:
If an HWC occur they will get shot Immediatly.


Again your facts are not straight (thats why I said you have some misconceptions and lack of understanding) - In many instances, in the past and currently - when for example lions venture out of the KTP (or other animals in other Parks), and HWC occur, they are chased back into the Park - not shot immediately :hmz: Maybe you can advise Sanparks on who is giving you this information as a fact (as your statement indicates it as a fact), for them to look into that and maybe launch a facts campaign ? I also know of instances where these "problem animals" that like to wander out of the Park areas are collared, and their movements monitored to prevent further HWC - so absolutely not a true statement you made. If one thing happens somewhere in Africa it's not to say it happens everywhere - the same goes for Europe, USA etc

Quote:
The shooting Rates in the last years verfiy my statments... .
Could you please reveal to us your sources and what these rates are for Augrabies area - as this is the discussion point of this thread. Otherwise it's again a generalization and maybe you can start another thread in this forum discussing that, and I will gladly participate in that - because I am also totally against any killing of even so called "problem animals" - I rather think the human beings are the problem, not the animals.

If you can criticize, surely you can take that as well. I see what I'm saying to you as constructive criticism to you - it's easy to jump on the "words" bandwagon, but not so easy to actually do something physically. The easiest part is to criticize. I will not be silenced if I feel unjust and preconceived remarks are made.

Fact is, don't generalize and attribute all of Africa's problems to Sanparks. Maybe a good starting point would be to launch an anti-hunting (Especially Trophy hunting) campaign in the so called "Rich Countries" - as it is with their wealth and money that they exploit Africa for their killing pleasures. Isn't that maybe one of the biggest threats to the depletion of quality and quantity of wildlife in Africa ? Not to say thats the only one, and definitely not for Africa to see this as an excuse for their own responsibility.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:35 pm
Posts: 83
Location: I'd rather be in the bush !!!
Quote:
WOW that is little number... . That doesn´t sound like a big and stable Population.


Again before you make a statement like that - there are various factors that influence a healthy population of leopards. Geography and size of the area, the sustainable natural food sources available to them, habitat, water, size of their roaming area according to the mentioned factors etc etc - just to name a few.

As AG has asked - what would you consider a healthy population - and based on what information do you come to that conclusion ?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:16 pm 
Offline
Senior Virtual Ranger
Senior Virtual Ranger
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:24 pm
Posts: 1131
Location: Hout Bay
jan.dup :thumbs_up: Thank you for your input on this - it really is appreciated !

_________________
We can do no great things, only small things with great love. ~Mother Teresa

Some people come into our lives, leave footprints on our hearts and we are never the same ...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:24 pm 
Offline
Junior Virtual Ranger
Junior Virtual Ranger

Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:15 pm
Posts: 787
A.G, thanks for your input.
Some of the long posts from M do not make much sense and it is difficult to follow his drift!
M, try using a spell check to help with words and beware of making assumptions without enough background info.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:30 pm 
Offline
Senior Virtual Ranger
Senior Virtual Ranger
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:24 pm
Posts: 1131
Location: Hout Bay
Sorry AG :redface: meant to include you too - thanks for your patience and all the trouble you are going to to answer this ...

_________________
We can do no great things, only small things with great love. ~Mother Teresa

Some people come into our lives, leave footprints on our hearts and we are never the same ...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:00 pm
Posts: 572
Location: Germany/ Greifswald
Hello AG

According to that source the http://www.conabio.gob.mx/institucion/c ... %20CS4.pdf (P.11) the best Population will be by around 50 Individuals. the Minimum will be 20 Individuums, after that numbers I conclude that this one is not a stable Population. But as you statet already, monitoring is very difficult. I guess I underestimate it. But still the importance is already stated, because in the last years an Decrease of an Population is visible (P. 10).

Hello Jan,

It is obvious that 5 Leopards in Area of round about 55.000 Hectar are not enough. Evenso we are taking the Geography and Habitat, Climate in consideration. A Normal Range of Territory may vary from 10 km² -60 km² . So there are Space for more and that is simple Mathematik.
jan.dup wrote:
Quote:
The System is as follows, when you are in South Africa and holding a Farm, and you recognise a development of an Problem Animal, you can declare it as problem animal and shoot it.
Surely we cannot attribute this to Sanparks ?


I know how many animals per annum are shot in RSA. And that are not only Trophy Hunters. If you are talking to the Farmers they will tell you, if they see a Leopard killing a Caddle they got shot. In the Maluti Mountains for exampels there were a Case where a Leopard from Golden Gate Highland went direction Clocolan and ladybrand on his way there were some killings of Caddle and Goats recorded. In the end it was not transfered back to the park he was shot! The same with Caracal or Jackal, if you are talking to the Framers, they will tell you if they causing troubles it will be the end. esspecially around the National Parks, the conflikt occur most, because the Density is normaly hihger then some where else. The Difference to Augrabies might be, that this NP is more likely a Natural heritage, the Visitors are not only comming for the Game.

Colaring animals is indeed quite expensive. I will not doubt it that Farmers start to rethink, esspecally RSA develop a good campaign, but you have to be aware when, animals are sneaking aroung, causing trouble, the Patient of the Farmers will still be low. Reason Caddle or Game having a high Economical Value, meaning: I can remember that a Buff was sold on an Auction for 125.000 Rand. If this animal is gone because of Lions, the Farmer will going out to the hunt. You may like or not. But I will look up for scintific proove. But you are right Namibia is not South Africa... .

LINDSEY, P.A. et. Alli (2006) [Hrsg. LINDSEY et. Alli]: „Economic and Conservation significance
oft the trophy hunting industry in sub-Saharan Industry” IN: Biological Conservation (2007) I 34
S.455-469, Elsevier Ltd.
http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... B&url=http
%3A%2F%2Fwww.fga.net.au%2Fsecure%2Fdownloadfile.asp%3Ffileid%3D1028776&ei=iyE3UKK
pG8fMtAb4g4HgBg&usg=AFQjCNGVzfYZ88NmvAwC4SfZhemjuVGXQA (Zugriff:24.8.2012)

The country is listed but not where the Trophy hunting took place. Numbers for Augrabies are un avalaible... . But it shows because of the lack of monitoring to many animals are shot. That is only the number for Trophy Hunter. Problem Game will not be count, because no numbers, which are trustworthy exist. And that is, what I criticise at all

BOOTH, VERNON R. (2009) [Hrsg. BOOTH, VERNON R.]: „A comparison of the prices of
Hunting Tourism in Southern and Eastern Africa”, Joint publication of international Council for Game
and Wildlife Conservation and Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, Budapest
S.40ff. ISBN: 978-963-88778-0-2

This one is another Source where you can look it up. Esspecially the hunters claimed to improve the monitoring... .

To tell someones Knowledge is wrong is very unpolite also the Style of writing lead me to the conclusion, that you are attacking me for no reason. By the way I´d like to see your sources in Terms that NO Farmer in South Africa shoot Problem animals. Even so SANP will deal with Problem Animals, the question will be if they are getting all? All, with no proper monitoring done? Well it would be a dream but an Illusion.

Trophy Hunting can be good or bad it always depends how you organise it. The Problem, esspecially in Europe, the oppinion from locals of the Hunters are ofetn evil. Well some of them are but not all. Indeed the are no proove if they Harm or destroy nature. This topic is rarley researched. But that will be Off- Topic now. You are welcome to open a new Thread in INdaba. I would participate of course.

Ok I have checked my spelling now. I hope it is now better understandable

Best Regards
Malealea

_________________
life is Game, you rather play or flee. I chose to play the Game.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:00 pm
Posts: 572
Location: Germany/ Greifswald
Jan,

You told me wrong, that Farmers are not shooting animals. Please read that. It is statted that some of them pushes the Framers to the limit, sometime till the Framer has no chance then shooting. The Cape Leopard Trust was formed to decrease the impackt Here my Source http://capeleopard.org.za/research/conflict

_________________
life is Game, you rather play or flee. I chose to play the Game.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion on monitoring in Augrabies.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:50 pm 
Offline
Distinguished Virtual Ranger
Distinguished Virtual Ranger
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 18106
Location: Johannesburg - where they cut down trees and name streets after them.
Malealea,

Leopards are not shot inside the boundary lines of Augrabies or any National Park controlled by SANParks. Trophy hunting is not allowed no matter what animal is targeted. The only time animals are shot is if it's part of a cull or if an animal is suffering and has no chance of recovering. Animals are only culled inside a National Park if they are so overpopulated that they have a negative impact on biodiversity.

What happens beyond the boundaries of our parks is not under SANParks' control. They do not hand out hunting licenses and they do not approve any hunt. I suggest you write to the Department of Environmental Affairs with your concerns because it is off topic on this forum.

Should you want to investigate or discuss your grievances about SANParks' internships, please contact SANParks directly. See here.

Oh and a last thing.... :wink:
Please leave the moderating to the moderators. We are the only ones that may pull a member up for breaking the rules. Should you want to bring a post under our attention, please hit the "!" on the post in question and we will deal with it.

This topic will now be locked.

_________________
"Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened." ~ Anatole France


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

Webcams Highlights

Addo Nossob Orpen Satara
Addo Nossob Orpen Satara
Submitted by VicRob at 08:51:51 Submitted by Aristocat at 21:34:19 Submitted by impyim at 09:33:06 Submitted by Philwarpy at 08:59:14