SANParks.org Forums

Hear Hear Ecojunkie!! Brilliantly said!

I was also a child who was put on my fathers lap to steer the wheel
And I understand that we often want to raise children the way we were raised
But let it be understood, that every rule should be adhered to.
I have before been the one to look at 'The Gallery of Shame' and seen photos where I can hardly make out what the crime is here
And I have said there are bigger fish to fry!
I thought that people should get over these petty offences when there are issues that destroy the Park! Drunk drivers getting in accidents, speeders killing animals, poaching of rhinos etc.
So I can relate to your reasoning of that there are worse offenders to be bust.

But what I have come to understand over my short-lived forum time, I have realised that us Mites disagree about what is serious offence and what is not.
One example is the debate over the party at New Years in Satara.
For the life of me I could not understand what the big crime was - employees celebrating the new year!
But the thread spiraled into an epic debate!
My point is that we disagree about which rule breaking is minor, and which is major.

All the rules are there for good reasons.
And we abide them all.
But for those of us who are not angels
We will take our chances breaking our rule of choice

I confess I also had my son on my lap while we were purr-purring along at 25km/h and he was in another world "racing" at death defying speeds that we can not even imagine, with full sound effects of course.
No wonder his favourite programme today is Top Gear, it all started in KNP.
I thought that if I felt comfortable with the surroundings it was "ok", for him to drive, for example, on the straight and open H1-4 between Satara and Olifants.
Not a chance on narrow overgrown twisty roads where a surprise can wait for you around every corner.
We actually spoke about it on our last visit to Kruger, when he was driving the H1-4 towards Olifants, but this time he was a legal 18 year old with a license.
I felt a bit of Deja Vu (not of the Teach your Children type - if you know what I mean)

Typical human behaviour, when we think it is OK, we allow ourselves to break the laws, but it is wrong

Let me understand this.
A- belives 25% of the rules are unreasonable so he ignores them
B- also belives some are unreasonable and because A is doing it so can he, but he feels the unreasonable 25% are different to A's
C- Also has a problem with some and with A & B ignoring, he feels he can also ignore 25%
D- comes along and sees no-one following rules and so does not understand why there are rules and following the examples sets just ignores them.

Compound this and we eventually have all the rules ignored, then we wonder why there is no rule keeping in Kruger and the place going to the dogs.
Well, it is because of us that the rule breaking happens, this is not meant as an attack or offence, but as an example.
It is the person letting his son sit on his lap, the person letting their kids ride the bikes, the people climbing out of the vehicles etc.
Now because all are doing some of this and the law enforcement deals with this daily and then have to put up with abuse and an argument every time they try to enforce a rule, they eventually start looking for the easier route and that is to turn a blind eye and hope no-one tackles them on it.
Maybe every couple of weeks they will be taken to task of not doing something when rules are being broken, whereas if they tackled it every day, they would be getting abused daily, so guess which option they take.

I am so happy to see that I gathered some support during the night
My whole point still is that if it is about safety of the child, why is it ok not te wear seatbelts in the park ?
It's also a rule, but one we choose to ignore ?
May the child sit on his mother's lap in the passenger seat ?
Same thing still applies regarding safety, and airbags etc., so I'm sure he's not allowed there either.
I'll say it again:
The majority is right here I won't put my child on my lap again.
Lesson learnt, but the reason I am not doing it, is because of his safety, and not because it's a rule on SA roads.

Does the entry permit actually say that no children are allowed on the driver's lap ??????
I have not seen that part ?

If I had a smilie that could jump to attention and salute I would definitely insert it here.

So that is your point?

I have an entry permit in front of me now, and there is not a rule about lap drivers or seatbelts. And there is no sentence saying that normal road rules apply.

Yup Picnic.

I have a Kruger conditions of entry before my eyes from December last year
Transgression of these Rules and Regulations can result in legal action being taken against the culprit(s)
(there is an explanation after the headings, which I'm not going to type out)
1. Stay in your Vehicle
2. Speed Limits
3. Drink and Drive
4. Valid Licence
5. Road Closure
6. Entrance Gates
7. Overnight Visitors
8. Departure Times
9. Driving Areas Restricted
10. Feeding the Game
11. Removing flaura/fauna
12. Large Vehicle Restriction
13. Beware Malaria Zone
14. Pet free Zone
15. Disturbing Game is prohibited
16. A litter free zone
17. Declare Weapons at gate
18. No killing of animals
19. Underage children on game drives
20. Fire free zone
21. Smoking free zone
22. Stay on marked trails

That is all in that section.

On the back it says:
- Travelling between gates and rest camps after closing time is strictly prohibited
- A stringent noise restriction is enforced between 21:30 and 06:00
- the use of cell phones is permitted only in large rest camps and entrance gates
- The use of roller skates, skateboards, bicycles, moterbikes and quadbikes is prohibited anywhere in the park.


The rest of the pamphlet is about good game viewing practice, and elephants

I am all for 'Rules are Rules'.But then those rules must be laid out.
So then it is time for an update on the Conditions of Entry
Adding lap driving, and seatbelts (if those are rules)

The permit should state something to the effect that visitors are subject to these:

http://www.sanparks.org/assets/docs/tourism_reservations/park-regulations.pdf

If it doesn't that is rather a serious error on sanparks side I would have thought but then ignorance of law is not a legal defence anyway apparently.

Thanks 3D!

The difference between your link and the conditions of entry permit is the line
"general rules of the road apply".
That is not in the permit

(If it is, they need to fine every shirless man driving )

This should be added to the conditions of entry

I'm all for following rules...., but...

Seriously.
Is driving at 20km/hr with a small child on your lap really so dangerous?
Yes, yes, the law, the force and the airbag, the surprises etc. etc.. but what are the chances?
At 20 km/hr? In the KNP where there is about 5 cars/km.. (or is it less?)
I've driven many hundreds (thousands?) of kms in the KNP and were only surprised once by one elephant while going 50km/hr trying to make it back to camp before gate closure...and did not come close to hitting it (it was rather a surprise to get past an ellie in the road that quickly though... ).
At 20 km/hr the surprises are much fewer... and, dare I say it, less serious.
(Not to mention in comparison with the city with, what, a few hundred cars/km at 60+ km/hr... in this situation, yes, the child must be in a car seat... but in the KNP at 20km/hr?)
Personally, I would not drive with a child on my lap because it is hot enough already in the lowveld -- don't need a 3-year old "heater" on my lap as well...

We're getting too overprotective people!
I'm fairly sure most people on this forum older than 30 years grew up with no baby seats and no seat belts until they were old (and tall) enough not to be be-headed by the seat belt!
And all of us are here to discuss the issue on the forums.
So. Let the child live a little!
I'm sure it's little fun doing all of the game watching out of the back seat while strapped into a safety seat!

I'll continue to drive without seat belts on in the KNP. (Unless I spot a traffic officer in time to quickly put it on in any case --
I wonder, do they also hide behind the bushes in the KNP, just like in Pretoria? )

In my opinion, the more serious offence in the situation was the Fortuner going 80km/hr! Putting animals and other road users at risk!

Who may come around a corner not watching where they are going and you are tootling along with your kid on your lap and can't take evasive action because of it and ......
But hey, what are the chances right? Cos we all know that hardly anyone speeds in KNP and that animals are so predictable.

And

Hopefully you are just referring to the experience of driving in parks? My mother was just 22 when she was thrown from a vehicle without seat belts (in the '60's) and was left with severe and permanent intellectual and physical disabilities.

Seat belts and child seats save lives even at very low speeds.

I'm not saying that it is safe to go without seat belts or have a toddler on your lap while driving very slowly in the KNP, but no one is safe from death in the long run and everyone has to make the choice of exactly how many precautions they want to take to stave off death and injury.

I always wear seat belts in city traffic and on highways, no matter how long or short the journey, but I make the choice of not going overboard with precautions, and therefore I go without in the KNP, where the chances of a serious accident at low speed are much lower than in the city, and the slightly increased risk is outweighed by the increase in my enjoyment of nature, the freedom of movement etc.

Maybe the chances are still to high to your liking so you make a different choice.
Up to you.
But in my opinion, people are starting to get so paranoid, worrying about everything that can possibly go wrong in life that they forget to just enjoy life and take it as it comes!
(And no, I'm not saying go overboard in the other direction and just let things happen!...
I'm just saying, balance is important - even in deciding exactly how many precautions one takes in preventing serious injury or death while driving in your car...)