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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:57 am 
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Cant see why i opened a door to a political discussion but that is your opinion

To me the only real protection will be
Make it a less affordable destination
Can be as private company or as SANparks
for eg.

No Wildcard
Higher camping fees.
No more cheap accommodation
That will lead to less tourists and ultimately fewer camps and less traffic.
Create less traffic by allowing day visitors to either drive through Kruger with a
safari company, either booked outside the park or with the park&ride.

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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:07 am 
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BunnyHugger wrote:
Nice one Stark.

Quite simply it means putting a stop to turning paradise into a three ringed circus. It means NOT developing it. It means NOT putting human needs ahead of those of the animals that conservation is supposed to protect.

It means keeping it simple and virginal the way the James Stevenson-Hamilton envisaged it so many years ago.

It's that simple. :slap:

The problem as I see it it that debate is no longer encouraged by SANPARKS as this is contrary to their "vision" of what conservation is. :wall:


How very true those words are BH

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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:24 am 
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In years gone by, KNP was cheap, it was clean and it worked. This is sadly no longer the case. I have only opinions as to why but for the sake of keeping within the rules of this forum, I will not venture those opinions.

AS far as cheap accommodation goes, KNP is not cheap. In fact, to stay at a private resort where I have access to some pretty awesome facilities, it is cheaper for me to go there rather than KNP. I can only thus deduce / conclude, that the the Parksboard is not run efficiently and for that matter neither are the parks.

There are also other reserves I can go to that are not as expensive as KNP. Fact is, KNP is grossly mismanaged as I see it. If, in the interest of conservation, they need to adjust the costs, then so be it. Rather that than rape it. So if i means less people, then nature will benefit. It will surely not benefit by having more people. More tourist = higher carbon footprint = more road kill = more pressure on nature to survive the onslaught of man = greater chance of extinction.

KNP is after all a nature reserve. It's very existence came into being to conserve the natural resources and animals that once freely roamed where my office currently is in downtown JHB. It has been around for 100 years. At the present rate, I doubt very much it will be around for another 100.

With some luck, it may resemble the zoo in Jhb where a few animals are held in cativity, but by and large, I suspect, that it will cease to exist. The animals will most likely all be extinct and I think, that man may also have finally manged to wipe himself from the face of the planet.

In a 100 years from now, at the present rate of development, we might just manage to completely anhialate ourselves and our planet.

I just think that those currently making ludicrous policy in Nature preservation and conservation are too short sighted to see this.

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Conservation is not an option.
It's imperative.

Leave KNP alone. Go build a hotel someplace else. Reserves are for the preservation of wildlife.

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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:30 pm 
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We must not use the KNP as the only example on which to express our frusrations ... ultimately , and this applies the world over , we must stop being selfish towards nature and we must forget our self importance ...

the only solution is to reduce the human population .

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KNP is sacred. I am opposed to the modernisation of Kruger and from the depths of my soul long for the Kruger of yesteryear! 1000+km on foot in KNP incl 56 wild trails.200+ nights in the wildernessndloti-indigenous name for serval.


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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Hi guys,

My only concern is that there should still be some ubuntu under this ubuntu tree. We are a lot of people sharing the same concern, not just about Kruger but about every nook and cranny the world over where nature is in danger of falling down an endless cliff. Yes, we should make money in order to conserve and preserve this nature, but we must also be very aware and vigilant about mismanagement, misappropriation, corruption and self enrichment, since it is unfortunately a very big part of our daily existence, here and abroad. And we must seriously guard that the wolf wont come in sheep’s clothing, like a thieve in the night, just to destroy and devour what is very dear to all our hearts, giving al that is nice as an excuse. Remember the old saying:” the road to hell is paved with good intentions”. Lets face it, a lot of mismanagement has happened in Kruger, we al witnessed it in the state of the camps and the accommodation, and al the other subjects that have been mentioned on this forum over and over again. A simple thing like the change of management at Tshokwane made the world of difference in just a few weeks time. And I think that is what some of us is trying to say. That whatever Kruger and SANPARKS do, must be done with a lot of consideration and planning towards the ultimate goal, and that is the preservation of a gem of this country, and not just to enrich a few BEE individuals and companies, at the sole expense of a wonderful heritage for al of us, black and white. :thumbs_up:


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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:06 pm 
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ndloti wrote:
We must not use the KNP as the only example on which to express our frusrations ... ultimately , and this applies the world over , we must stop being selfish towards nature and we must forget our self importance ...

the only solution is to reduce the human population .


This is really what it's all about, too many people and not enough space and resources. And with the world population still growing it will only become more and more difficult to protect nature.

With a failing world system, what's the solution?

Any ideas ??

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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:33 pm 
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A major issue with the population explosion is that it is occurring in underdeveloped parts of the world...where much of the remaining wilderness exists.

You then take into account the disproportionate consumption of resources used to maintain the lifestyle of modern societies and you have a nasty 1-2 punch.

It is sad to think that wilderness may only survive in pockets, with artificial constraints, if it survives at all.

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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:55 am 
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Stark, what you say is true, but a person in the third world leaves a tiny footprint compared to anyone in the first world. The greatest contribition to pollution comes from countries with declining birth rates.

Personal responsibility is needed in all the choices we make. We need to reach a point that no government, industial, mining decisions are made without first considering the impact to the enviroment. Greed is the earth's greatest enemy.

In terms of curbing population growth, a matter of deep concern, declining populations has always been linked to the emancipation of women.

In areas where women are seen as property and have no choice, child birth is the sole perogative of the male. Children are all too often seen as male fecundity and proweress.

We have to live in present day reality and learn from past mistakes, idealising the past is no solution as it is always a view based on subjective evaluation. The ability to be brutaly honest, to put ego aside means that we have to accept that we are all on this planet together. Our space is a space shared.

It is an African saying that I love that most portays my thoughts on conservation, "we do not own the land, we have borrowed it from our children".

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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:20 am 
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I have always enjoyed James Lovelock's books. His theory that the Earth is a self regulating organism appeals to me. It makes some sort of sense out of our present situation where we have a world that seems on an uncontrolled path to destruction.

The thought that "Mother Earth" will take the necessary steps to protect our home rather than allow her children to destroy it, even though sadly it may mean huge natural disasters to correct population numbers gives me some sort of comfort.

What's the alternative. To believe that Earth is just a random chunk of rock hurtling through a cold meaningless universe.

This is not an invitation for anyone to bring religion into this please. We all have our own concepts of what the purpose of "life" is.

And our own religions.

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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:03 am 
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Hawk, James Lovelock makes so much of our debate seem meaningless. His Gaia threory makes sense as the quantum world becomes more explored. He also points out that we are at the edge of a final disater in terms of global warming. This makes so many debates centred on economy seem like arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

The quantum world is not a world of mechanical fixed masses, but one that is dynamic and living. It is a world where our actions can and do have multiple consequences. It is a world where everything matters.

I have been fascinated by the discoveries in psychoneuroimmunology.. big word that means your emotions are made up of molecules. It explores a deeper understanding of cellular intelligence and suddenly the concept of the "God within us" seems so real.

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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:24 am 
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MM, the last book of Lovelock's I read was "The Revenge of Gaia". Have you read his most recent one?

Your above post is fascinating. I would love to hear more. Please post.

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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:42 am 
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Hawk, I have not read his latest book. He has had such a profound impact on my thinking though.

I have been reading a lot of Candice Pert lately. She was the first scientist to discover a way to measure neuropeptides, those mocecules that attach to our nerve receptors. These are the molecules that are resposible for all feeling, be it excitemnt, fear, lethargy.. anything. The thing that most excited her was the discovery of a "thinking body". The molecules were not only in our brain, but scattered thoughout our bodies.

It is one of the reasons why fear is felt as a clenching of the stomach, or in severe situations even an empying of the bowels.

Amazingly, these molecules can be found at the most primitive single celled organism.

Candice Pert documents her own growth through this process from sceptical scientist to one of of "scientist mystic".

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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:29 am 
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Candice Pert sounds familiar, but I have never read any of her books. I will Google for them, but can you recommend a good one. If its on Kindle I will download a sample first.

I must still get "The Biology of Belief" as well. I've read the sample and its a definite for me. I Promised myself that when I retired I would spend a few months just reading, but life just doesn't work that way.

So much to read, so little time.

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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:55 pm 
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Thought I would jump into the fray, but after reading all the posts - think I'll leave before my ears get burned!

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 Post subject: Re: What does protecting wilderness mean to you?
Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:47 am 
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Normana :D hope you don't stay quiet forever.

Hawk, I am busy reading, "Molecules of Emotion", but I far prefered her, "Everything you need to know to feel good". Her later book is a lot more mature and personal. The title makes it sound like a "self help" book. It is so much more than that. Again she looks at neuropeptides and their role in the body, the cellular inteligence of all creatures.

We need to take James Lovelock's theory of Gaia seriously. I remember reading about Neil Armstrong's reaction to seeing "the blue planet". It was for him a moment of conversion. He realised the wonder of what earth really meant.

We have lost our awe, our wonder. We have lost the ability to relate to the earth as "mother".

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