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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:52 am 
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Stark, I never quite thought about it from the point of view of getting our fellow forumites to support it from a financial point of view. Realistically, things are pretty tough for many and you guys have contributed to so many worthwhile things, I would feel terrible asking you all to dig in again. Naturally you have a great idea and of course, ALL contributions will be welcome. :D

I was thinking of it more from a corporate sponsorship level and aiming to get some money in that way. If you think about it, it's one helluva ride. I worked out the distances a while back but have forgotten where I stored all the info. Day one has the biggest distance of around 160 km with the next two being just over 100 each. The last day is the easiest with a short hop from Skuks to Melelane. Something like 60. Obviously I stand to be corrected as I am quoting from memory and of all the things I have lost, I miss my mind the most. :?

In terms of support vehicles, we have two MPV's with trailers for the bikes so if we have to hop it into a vehicle, the rear door will be open and if we have to hop in quick, there is an access point. Support will also be carrying all the heavy stuff like drinks and food. (Unfortunately, NO frostys on this "game drive.") Plan is that we will stop the vehicles and wait for any danger to go away and resume at the exact spot where we stopped cycling. So, the main idea is to cycle every metre of the way.

P@m (looooooong tme) :D . The thorns are not an issue. We all carry spare tubes, tyres, puncture kits and will probably have a few spare wheels as well. Support will just give us another wheel while they repair any punctures on the go. Brunch and or lunch will happen at picnic spots and there is just as great a risk there as anywhere else in the park so I figure we will be absolutely safe.

We will no doubt cycle behind a lead vehicle and have one bring up the rear with a ranger in each. Their main function will an extra pair of eyes to look out for anything that gets missed and we might give them the extra task of handing out drinks on the go.

The only thing that SANPARKS will have to come up with is their permission for the ride and two rangers to make sure we a) stay in line and behave and b) that we are safe from charging rhinos or ellies. (and if any ranger has to shoot an animal I'll just run over him with my bike.) :twisted:

I haven't seen lions on or near the road for many years now so I guess we should be OK. :lol: DD says there are no leopards, but I have seen two of those on the roads (one on a tar road and one on a sand road). By deductive reasoning, I only expect to see maybe one leopard on the tar roads, no cheetah and no lion. Therefore we deduce that the greatest threat may come from ellies and I figure we will be insignificant to any ellies unless there are young in the herd. Maybe the dagga boys could pose a moderate threat, but hey, we might have to speed then, just to get away. :hmz:

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Conservation is not an option.
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Leave KNP alone. Go build a hotel someplace else. Reserves are for the preservation of wildlife.

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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:11 pm 
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Hi BH and all!

Can we have some more input here? And then I will forward this topic to SANParks to get some idea how the proposal will be received. But for the next couple of weeks, lets see if we can work through all possible pros and cons here.

I am going to repeat points raised, but a couple of things to be kept in mind is that it will have to be obviously agreed to by Kruger management; in keeping to a policy of good corporate governance, SANParks have strict policies about sponsorship, so we will have to take that into consideration too.

Keep those ideas coming ... if not always right away, they do bear fruit in time :thumbs_up:

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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:00 am 
BunnyHugger wrote:
The idea is this. Since there is an organised MTB ridefrom Olifants, I figured to organise a "Ride for rules" to raise funds for speed checking equipment to be used in the park.


I think this is a very good idea. BH! :clap: :thumbs_up:
I do however think more thought should be given on exactly what equipment you want to sponsor. If I remember correctly, the normal radar “gun” cost about R20 000? I don’t think buying the equipment is a problem for SANParks, I think the problem lies in lack of manpower that have to use the equipment. If a fundraising initiative like this is undertaken, maybe it should be for the purpose of purchasing more unmanned cameras?

I have been giving some thought about how speeding can be controlled in the parks…and have come up with an idea…not excluding the initiative BH brought up, it can possibly be done in conjunction with it.
Speed humps definitely helps in reducing the speed people travel….but these hump have to be strategically placed….not as its been done in some of the KZN parks.
For the tar roads in Kruger, for example, I was thinking that the small steel hump will be the best option….because the road will not have to be dug up to create larger tar humps.
Many people want to have their name, or those of loved ones, displayed in Kruger…therefore all the benches and memorial plates that people pay for. What about making that money really work for the conservation and future of the parks.
Make it possible for a person to donate a set of speed humps….with a traffic sign warning motorist of the bumps, and below this sign a board displaying the names of the people who made the donation?

On the gravel roads it will not be necessary to put up hump…all that is needed is that the excess ground, after grading the roads, can be used to create humps….people can then, obviously at a lesser price, make donations just for the traffic signs.

Such an initiative could possibly be run by the Honorary Rangers?…not a 3rd party as with My Acre. :wink:

Having said all the above….speed enforcement in the parks should not be seen as a “nice to have”…it should be seen as a crucial part of conservation….and thus, considering their mandate, should receive serious attention from the park’s management when they plan their operational budget. SANParks have now received a generous sum of money from the sale of the ivory stockpiles and spending some of that on speed enforcement in ALL the parks, will comply with their commitment to use these funds to further conservation …just MHO


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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:42 am 
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I beleive education of all people entering the KNP is the best method , and a fundraising effort as advocated can be used to teach all people entering by way of a prominently printed widscreen sunshield that can be kept by the driver , or similar method.

As far as speed bumps are concerned , besides the fact that people seem to very often ignore them unless they are of such a size that they are dangerous (think of broken oil sumps) , I think the costs of erecting good quality humps will be prohibitively high , I assume it will require a very strong construction , or at least metal .

Another angle to consider in the question of speed bumps is the environment - braking and acceleration which causes additional pollution - e.g. a vehicles fuel consumption under acceleration far exceeds that at a steady speed and brake pad dust is toxic , but the main consideration is the pollution of the surrounding areas by the unburnt fuel component contained in exhaust emmissions created by vehicles accelerating after the speed bump.

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KNP is sacred. I am opposed to the modernisation of Kruger and from the depths of my soul long for the Kruger of yesteryear! 1000+km on foot in KNP incl 56 wild trails.200+ nights in the wildernessndloti-indigenous name for serval.


Last edited by ndloti on Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:56 am 
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I agree with Ndloti. Speed bumps is not the best way of stopping people from speeding.

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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:23 am 
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Firstly, thanks for some input from all those who have responded to this initiative. Can we agree that this is a debate and that all comments be seen as constructive and not mere criticism? Cool.

Jumbo, I think your idea of speedhumps does have merit. The objective of this initiative is to find ways to curb speeding and to raise funds to do it. I am however against speed humps. Usually, I tow a small luggae trailer around the park in which is my camping gear. Then, my travels around the park, are also usually connected to my thoughts about the size of my carbon footprint. To try and at least reduce it, I usually get the car rolling and then move through my gears until I get about 35km and hour in top gear with the engine idling (yeah, my car has sufficient power to pull itself and the trailer along although I do have to downshift on uphills and brake downhill. The reason I do this is to reduce my fuel consumption. Speedhumps will increase avearge fuel consumption.

Speedhumps will dramtically increase the fuel consumption as people will have to slow down and then speed up again (assuming they stay within the speedlimit.)

I know what it is to pull my trailer over speed bumps, imagine those who tow caravans. Caravans hate speed humps more than anything else. Ever noticed how they bounce over even the smallest road bumps. Speed humps are a caravnners nightmare. Ask any one of them. I think they would agree with that assesment in general, although some may not have a problem with the idea until they experience the real joy of stuff all over the van on arrival at camp.

The other aspect that I would be against is the errection of signs all over the park. I'm sure I speak for many when we say we would like it to remain as "pure as possible" rather than looking like downtown JHB with millions of street signs all over.

We will always have chancers who will speed regardless of how many cameras or speed checks there are. We need to seriously educate all park visitors that the rulesare there for the safety of the animals first, AND themselves second. SANPARKS are after all, about conserving out natural heritage, both flora and fauna.

JUst maybe one way of doing this is to have some form of device made that fits on the roof of the car. On enetering the park, it gets fitted at the gate, attached to the speedo and it reads out, clearly the vehicle speed for ALL to see. That way, your speed is advertised and anyone taking a picture can hand it in at any restcamp as accptable "proof" of speeding. If you speed was visible to all, would you run the risk of speeding? I have my doubts.

There has to be a reasonably simple way to do this. Maybe SANARKS need to use the funds to purchase GPS or other devices that can record speed and as part of restcamp registry, youo have to hand over your device for downloading the stored info onto computer. IF you've been speeding, bad luck old man. You're in it now, right up to the eyeballs.

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Bunny Hugger

Conservation is not an option.
It's imperative.

Leave KNP alone. Go build a hotel someplace else. Reserves are for the preservation of wildlife.

Think Pink. ..


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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:42 pm 
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Hiya BH :D

I'm really positive about this idea! I think it's a nice and unique way of making people ingeneral and the outward world aware of the speeding problem in Kruger (SANParks in general?) Not gonna discuss the IDEA itself too much, if it's good it's good. :wink:

One thing is just unclear to me, have scanned through the posts, so Imight have missed it! If everything has recieved a green light, who is gonna do this ride!? Specific selected guys, well known cyclists or any guys with a reasonable condition who signed up for it!? I mean, 160km for the first day is alot, other than that GS will be more than willing to cycle along! The, how big will the group be??

Secondly, I think extensive media coverage is essential for bringing the message to the outter world. Planning the wholw thing from top to bottom is very important, so this is really something we should think about.

Then, I was thinking a car should drive 2km ahead or so, just to 'check out' the road leading forward. Altough animals can pop out of the bush very quick and unexpected, most dangers will be picked up that way.

Lastly, the season is gonna play a big role! Kruger can get HOT, so i think planning this during winter (June/July/August) is a thing to keep in mind....

Having cycled MANY km's in my past years, think it's a brilliant idea. :clap:

Chat later :thumbs_up:

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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:10 pm 
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Please may forumites (myself included) join as sweepers ? (in relay of course due to the distances to be covered)

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KNP is sacred. I am opposed to the modernisation of Kruger and from the depths of my soul long for the Kruger of yesteryear! 1000+km on foot in KNP incl 56 wild trails.200+ nights in the wildernessndloti-indigenous name for serval.


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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:25 pm 
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Another "just an idea" BH.

Ecojunkie is wanting to get brochures together for handing out at the gates -- could these 2 be combined ? In other words, funds raised go towards anti-speeding education for ALL at the entrance gates ?


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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:08 am 
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@P@M. I saw that thread of Ej's and I think it's a really great idea. One of the problems with our "instant, I want it all and I want it now" modern society is exactly that. We want it all, and we want it now. Such virtues as patience and respect have been killed by TV, and TV advertising. Why should anyone have to wait for anything? :?

So, while I think EJ's idea is great, I am deeply concerned that people will just accept a brochure, sign anything to say "yes, I read it, understand the contents,will comply." only to rush into the park in search of instant gratification. See the big 5 in the first km. When that doesn't happen, they fall over themselves and trip over everything else in search of the "Big" sighting. (I know, I was a Kruger Cowboy myself a while back and it took my SO and this forum to open my eyes.)

This is my only concern of the effectiveness of a brochure, but it is a good thing to do. Education is the best way forward for long-term success. :clap: Speed checking and vehicle patrols are other, allbeit kneejerk reactionary ways of dealing with rule breakers. How to fix that is not an easy one solution answer. Harsh penalties have to be meted out to trangressors. SANPARKS have to adopt a zero tollerance level. There is so much more at stake here. Conservation of the environment has to become top priority.

'nother problem is the arrogance of the rule breakers when called into question about their poor behaviour. So often, (I think) rangers overlook the transgression because "hey, I'm not into all that abuse." or perhaps, they don't know how to deal with it. (this is just generalised speculation on my part).

Hence the particular reason for my stance on hammering the rule breakers. Fight fire with water if you like. (If you fight fire with fire, both get burned.) :lol:

'K, GS, How many riders. Not more than 10. My idea, so I kind of really want to be involved in the first one. To raise awareness, I would like to have one or two "celeb riders" and pretty much have a full bus of people who have expressed keen interest to ride and pay fair cash to do it. Support vehicles have to right there on hand, I'm thinking one immediately in frontand one imediately behind. More riders would require more vehicles so that's why the smaller contingent. One or maybe two rangers should be able to cover the safety aspect.

The front vehicle is pretty much covered by one of the riders and is one of those MPV types that will have the back door open for hyper quick "get out of danger" type scenarios if it happens. Maybe need one more of those at the back of the pack.

The pack will ride in a compact formation. Two abreast with not more than a bike length between cycles to keep the risk element as low as possible. One thing we don't want is cyclists spread all over the park. The whole thing has to remain as one small compact unit.

Several things we do not wish to do.
A) Speed. Each vehicle (Cars and bikes, will be fitted with speed monitoring devices and sealed (so no tampering.) Info will be downloaded onto Laptops daily.)
B) create any kind of spectacle of bad behaviour. (If we see something interesting, we want to share the experience with other park visitors and possbly chat to them about what we are doing and why. Being polite and friendly and highlighting the fact rules are there more for our own safety that any other reason. I suspect that we will prob'ly be stopped by many because it is a totally unique mode of transport in the park. (I remember some of my earlier visits to KNP and seeing some of the staff members riding to "the office" and they were pretty safe. I guestimate, we will be too.)

TV Crew, I have not got into yet because this is still very much in the hypothetical stages. We cannot do anything until the idea gets support and approval. :slap: I do thinkk though that given what we are trying to achieve though, that this should be highly publisized. We need to reach as many as possible with this project. I suspect that it could become an annual ride and there are a lot of cyclsists who are also conservationists and would probably pay top dollar to do this in the future.

Timing: May would be an ideal time of year to do it. Still realtively warm without excessive heat and it is the end of the cycling season for many so they will still be fit and capable of doing the ride. We are talking serious distance here.

Above all, it is a fund raising and awareness campaign. It is to generate funds for SANPARKS to tackle the crime levels in the Kruger and possible other parks. To do this, they need manpower and equipment. So anything that does not come out of their allocated budget, can be spent in other ventures to improve everyones experience of paradise.

I say this because it only takes one or two loons to make a good experience bad. (look at my last experience of Lower Sabie. I certainly won't be going back there again.)

If everyone has a good experience, they will come back. Many who have had a bad one will simply disappear and never come back. They won't even voice the reason why, they just quietly walk away.

KNP is one of the most popular destinations in SA for tourists and we are ALL ambassadors of this country. I f we are polite and friendly to our guests, they will come back or at least send their friends.

If we cock it up, we loose. And so I ask you all, to lend me your support and make this dream a reality. In the long run, it will benefit us all.

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Bunny Hugger

Conservation is not an option.
It's imperative.

Leave KNP alone. Go build a hotel someplace else. Reserves are for the preservation of wildlife.

Think Pink. ..


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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:44 pm 
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Firstly, thanks DB for allowing this issue to be debated for a few weeks and BH, your initiative is to be welcomed, but I have certain reservations. I am rather new on this forum but please allow me to rush in where “angels” fear to tread (excuse the pun)!

Put yourself in the place of a visitor enjoying the park for all the right reasons and being confronted by a group of cyclists on the main road, albeit accompanied by official vehicles. It would be a shock to the system (I know this is intended). This will go against the grain of everything one knows, or has heard, about the park and I honestly believe a park ethic will be compromised and will create a serious precedent. What happens when other fundraisers want to do something similar in future? Everyone on this forum is passionate about our KNP and would like to assist but please think about it and don`t do this, however well-intended – let`s just not go there.

Can we not find other ways to raise awareness? I like EJ`s ideas and perhaps we can think creatively to enhance those ideas. Gate receptionists must be trained to specifically point out all rules and not merely dish out a permit. Hon. Rangers and others have negotiated sponsorships, etc, in the past. I am rather ignorant but can sponsorships not be found to flash an ad on TV regarding KNP rules without resorting to bicycle rides on public roads in KNP. Why not some other activity outside Kruger or whatever? BH, please do not think I am knocking your idea. I merely have a problem with the method. Education, yes, it always helps, but I fear most of the serial offenders, especially those from rural areas, will probably neither know nor care about such an initiative. Their objective is getting from point A to B for either business or other reasons. How many "drive alive" campaigns have there been countrywide, and yet?

The great majority of visitors do not speed. The culprits are usually the ones transporting goods, taxis – especially in the north, those heading for Moz and sadly some Sanparks staff members. We all know where the main problem areas are, especially during holidays - Punda/Pafuri, Punda/Shingwedzi and Phalaborwa/Giriyondo. Surely KNP management can deploy more resources in those areas when required. Sanparks received huge revenue from the ivory sale which can be used where necessary. When all is said and done, this whole issue is entirely the responsibility of Sanparks. What is required is the will to enforce it.


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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:37 pm 
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Meant to add that the will to enforce the speeding rules was exhibited during the recent holiday season and the results speak for themselves. Well done KNP. Now take it further on an ongoing basis. This is also a form of education.


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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:05 am 
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Oryx, welcome to the forum. Please note the health warning and diclaimer.

(This forum is highly addictive and neither SANPARKS nor any of the forumites (Mites) will accept any liability for prolonged exposure to this medium.)

Now onto the serious stuff. Although you are a newby, you are entitled to express your opinion. Just bear in mind that some will agree with you on some issues and some will not. It's not personal. In this case, I disagree with your reasonnig for not doing the ride. I understand the risks of the proposed venture and am willing to sign any disclaimer if it does go ahead. That is up to SANPARKS. If I thought it was a daft idea, I wouldn't have proposed it. Also, bear in mind that a Mountain bike ride goes out from Olifants, so it is already being done. Not in the public eye, but anyone who reads SANPARKS literature can see that it's being done since it an advertised activity.

My proposal is a very tough ride of several hundred km over a four day period. This will take a huge amount of fitness and dedication by all the cyclists. 160 km on day one, followed by two days of 100 km each and ending on day 4 with about 60 or 70 km. That's how dedicated I am to getting some kind of plan in place to curb speeding in the parks, by anyone.

I accept that many visitors do not speed, but there are some that do. When I was in the park in Aril 2008, I saw many visitors speeding and no staff vehicles at all. The problem is widespread and it has been suggested that SANPARKS do not have the resources to throw at the issue. (I stand to be corrected on this one.) Logically, a fund raing drive will provide certain resources and if the venture proves popular, it could become an annual event and increase revenue for the parks board.

Like I said, this is not the only idea. I just like it because I can think of nothing better than cruising through the place I love with only the sound of the wind in my ears and the very faint sound of a drivetrain and my tyres on the road. Really get very close to nature. There must be thousands of ideas on how to raise funds and more importantly, awareness. Speedchecking as I have said is reactive. Awareness is proactive. Because this hass never been done, it would be a real eye opener and that is why I think it could have merit. People will take note.

I accept that you disagree with my idea so let's hear yours.

EDIT:

So many of us had so much to say in the speeding thread. Where are your ideas on how to solve the problem?

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Bunny Hugger

Conservation is not an option.
It's imperative.

Leave KNP alone. Go build a hotel someplace else. Reserves are for the preservation of wildlife.

Think Pink. ..


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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:32 pm 
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Hi BH, thanks for the friendly welcome. Having problems with my computer, will answer in detail when it is fixed - these things always catch one at the wrong time.

BH I realise it will feel good to cycle down the length of the park with the wind in your ears, but that is not what it is about. It is about a new factor that can escalate dangerously. Others can also develop similar ideas and then what? Sure , there are bicycle rides at Olifants but it is not the same thing, it is off the beaten track and not on the main public road. Your idea has merit, but please do it outside the park and you can still have your fund-raising ride. It really sounds like you want to ride inside the park mainly for reasons of personal adventure. I truly believe that it is simply not done in Kruger.

Wish I could explain my argument in more detail but will be in touch in due course. Why does technology do this to one? You are right, this forum is addictive! Look forward to debating with you.


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 Post subject: Re: Speeding in the Parks fund raising idea
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:58 am 
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I agree Oryx, what does SANPARKS do after this event if someone comes along and offers more money to do another event than this cycle event. A presedent has been set by allowing this to happen. The argument that it is a once off to raise money to prevent speeding is countered by more money being offered the next time.

Like the idea and applaud the innitiative, but I believe it should not happen happen in the park. What about on the outskirts, from North to South.


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