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 Post subject: Dog cemetary in Skukuza.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:28 pm 
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I heard that the dog cemetary in Skukuza was moved, can anyone confirm this? :doh:

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Last edited by BrendaK on Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DOG CEMETARY IN SKUKUZA MOVED
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:52 pm 
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The dog cemetery is still very much there where it has always been. I saw it in July. It is in a bit of disrepair though. Some of the headstones are really old and cracked. They were made of cement after all. But it is clear that no one is really looking after this place. Lots of leaf litter around, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: DOG CEMETARY IN SKUKUZA MOVED
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:14 pm 
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Hi I, Disrepair? How come? Isn't it part of the heritage that should be looked after. Did you report it?

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 Post subject: Re: DOG CEMETARY IN SKUKUZA MOVED
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:26 pm 
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The kids love going for a tour to the cemetary each time we stay in Skukuza, I hope that it doesn't fall apart. :sniper:

We are there in 19 days and will report on the status


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 Post subject: Re: Dog cemetary in Skukuza moved
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:15 am 
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Boorgatspook wrote:
Official response from SANParks:

* The dog memorial concerned is not really a cemetery where dogs were buried or a historical site according to the Act. :huh: There are no bones underneath the stones.
* The dog gravestones were relocated to the site a few years back to enable tourists to have access to it.
* The site will be moved again to a better site as a point of interest.
:huh:


Dear Dotty/Boorgatsppok

Thank you for obtaining this response

I however have some follow up questions (as a person who works in the heritage sector myself) :rtm:
1 Which part of the act excludes this as a historical site? I cannot find any definition for historical site in the Heritage resources Act (which Act are they referring to?) it does however refer to historical graves and cemetries (no exclusion) to be part of the national estate (2g)
2 Where were the stones relocated from? and when? How long is a few years? I have a historical map indicating the cemetry to be in Skukuza
3 Where would the better site be?

Do you think I should approach other sources to obtain answers? as the danger in this is any area could be moved at the whim of an offical and valuable histories can be lost in this way. Heritage and history belongs to all of us

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 Post subject: Re: Dog cemetary in Skukuza moved
Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:02 pm 
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Sadly no reply from SANparks after so many weeks :wall:

I went there myself saw the new "Skukuza city" and to the tree where two lost stones were lying under the tree where the dog cemetry once was - and no indication as to where it went or maybe where it got dumped!

I do not want to be banned from the forum therefore I will keep my thoughts to myself or maybe hand it over to someone who may get an answer from the genius who moved the cemetry.

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"I am doomed to be a wanderer, I am not an empire builder, I am not a missionary, I am not truly a scientist, I merely want to return to the bush to continue my wanderings" (Joseph Thompson - The bush for me and Africa for him)


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 Post subject: Re: Dog cemetary in Skukuza moved
Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:18 pm 
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:hmz: ...If the dogs in question were dogs for the rangers...and they were working dogs...wouldn't that make them SANparks employees?

when an RCMP ( Royal Canadian Mounted Police) dog dies it receives a special service...and if it dies in the line of duty, I think it receives a medal(posthumously of course)

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 Post subject: Re: Dog cemetary in Skukuza moved
Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:52 pm 
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Clearly these dogs and by implication their masters did not matter enough - I wonder what would be going next? :(

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 Post subject: Re: Dog cemetary in Skukuza moved
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:06 am 
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Hi Brenda,

a few points RE: The Heritage Resources Act.

As mentioned the definition of grave does not limit it to human remains. It does however include all contents, headstones or any other markers. This is only applicable if the graves are older than 60 years, but
- The site might easily fall under the definition of a living heritage site. See (xxi)(e) popular memory and (h) the holistic approach to nature, society and social relationships.
- It is a public memorial as it was erected on land belonging to an organisation funded by the government. Public memorials recieve the same protection as sites on heritage registers refered to in section 30 of the Act.

However, till a respons is received we must assume that the Park follow the due process refered to in section 38 of the Act.


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 Post subject: Re: Dog cemetary in Skukuza moved
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:30 pm 
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Dear micromammal

Please go and look at the act again
his is only applicable if the graves are older than 60 years, MOST OF THE GRAVES WERE OLDER THAN 60 YEARS

but
- The site might easily fall under the definition of a living heritage site. See (xxi)(e) popular memory and (h) the holistic approach to nature, society and social relationships. READ THIS AGAIN LIVING HERITAGE REFERS TO INTANGIBLE HERITAGE (THINGS THAT YOU CANNOT TOUCH)
POPULAR MEMORY USUALLY REFERS TO ORAL HISTORY

- It is a public memorial as it was erected on land belonging to an organisation funded by the government. Public memorials recieve the same protection as sites on heritage registers refered to in section 30 of the Act.

However, till a respons is received we must assume that the Park follow the due process refered to in section 38 of the Act. SECTION 38 AMONGST OTHERS ALSO REQUIRES A PROCESS OF CONSULTATION, THIS I AM SURE DID NOT HAPPEN - I DID NOT SEE A NOTICE OR ANYTHING AT THE SITE WHEN I WAS THERE SHORTLY BEFORE IT WAS MOVED

I HOWEVER CONCUR WITH THE REST OF YOUR COMMENTS. I AM HOWEVER MAINTAINING THAT SANPARKS WERE IN CONTRAVENTION OF THE LAW WHEN THEY REMOVED THIS CEMETRY - I COULD NOT FIND THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS RELOCATED TO BUT WILL BE THERE AGAIN IN TWO WEEKS TIME, MAYBE SOMEONE WILL KNOW BY THEN WHERE IT IS. THIS MAY EXPLAIN THEIR SILENCE ON THE MATTER :hmz:

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"I am doomed to be a wanderer, I am not an empire builder, I am not a missionary, I am not truly a scientist, I merely want to return to the bush to continue my wanderings" (Joseph Thompson - The bush for me and Africa for him)


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 Post subject: Re: Dog cemetary in Skukuza moved
Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:20 pm 
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micromammal wrote:
Thank you for your reply Brenda (though red, letters might not have been necessary).

I have dealt with legal aspects of heritage since 2001 and only aimed to suggested that a sharp lawyer could define the cemetery as living heritage, etc. Laws are here to be tested and the NHRA's definitions are sometimes open for interpretation.

You might not agree with my liberal interpretation of legislation. But that is the beauty of a democracy!

Me

Dear Mm
The red letters were not to offend but to differentiate -
I am just so sad about a beautiful part of history that disappeared overnight - I think we essentially agree that heritage sometimes take a sad backseat in favour of "progress".
I was also quite disappointed when the SANparks reply claiming that there were no actual bones underneath the headstones showed such a lack of proper research.

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"I am doomed to be a wanderer, I am not an empire builder, I am not a missionary, I am not truly a scientist, I merely want to return to the bush to continue my wanderings" (Joseph Thompson - The bush for me and Africa for him)


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 Post subject: Re: Dog cemetary in Skukuza moved
Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:17 pm 
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I think a bigger issue is at play here: the current ineffectiveness of the NHRA.
Probably mainly due to the non-existance of the PRHAs.
The NHRA is task with promoting heritage and sadly most institutions and government agencies put heritage on the back burner due to either ignorance or lack of funds (probably both).
I don't have a copy of Tol Pienaar's (who recently passed away) book "Neem uit die Verlede", but I vaguely remembers sometime about the cemetery already having moved somewhere within the personnel village (I assume that must have been a while ago, pre-1999 and the NHRA), near one of the corporate buildings and that it was only the stones that remained in the tourist camp.
Perhaps someone reading this has a copy and can confirm this, else I'll try and track one down.


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 Post subject: Re: Dog cemetary in Skukuza moved
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:12 am 
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Dear Micromammal
I agree with you 200%, I also think that the heritage section at Kruger is not always consulted when decisions in the interest of progress are taken.

I have Neem uit die verlede and what I read about the dog cemetry was that it was removed from a site to the library in the (cant remember when either) but what I do remember clearly is that after it was moved to the library they continued to bury their dogs there, so I was so angry when Kruger responded with their answer that there were no bones there.
I will check and confirm these dates with you.
The sad part is that the dog cemetry "Little/small Heroes acre" is not the only heritage/historical site that was destroyed for the sake of progress this relates to periods before and after the transformation of Kruger.

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"I am doomed to be a wanderer, I am not an empire builder, I am not a missionary, I am not truly a scientist, I merely want to return to the bush to continue my wanderings" (Joseph Thompson - The bush for me and Africa for him)


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 Post subject: Re: Dog cemetary in Skukuza moved
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:27 am 
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I have always thought that the “dog cemetery” at Skukuza was only “window dressing” and I can understand that. Furthermore my understanding was that the headstones were collected from various parts in Kruger during the years and put in a “cemetery” as a point of interest. I mean, if the Punda Ranger’s dog got killed by a leopard did you really think it would have been brought all the way to Skukuza for burial? I can’t see how this site can be classified as a heritage site...It’s a place of interest and that is it, or am I wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Dog cemetary in Skukuza moved
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:49 am 
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Dear Theuns

According to Neem uit die verlede, dogs were actually buried there, at the old and library site in Skukuza.

I am not sure how it worked in the olden days though.

I think many places that are "heritage sites" would be places of interest according to your definition.

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"I am doomed to be a wanderer, I am not an empire builder, I am not a missionary, I am not truly a scientist, I merely want to return to the bush to continue my wanderings" (Joseph Thompson - The bush for me and Africa for him)


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