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the ridiculous "no more than 2 people in a wilderness camp tent" rule? shouldn't it be left to us, the tourists, to decide whether we feel comfortable to share a tent with a third person (most likely a child)? what's the point in forcing a party of 3 or 5 to book another tent they will most likely not need?

I don't think it's really related to the space in the tent but more to the point, the resources used (ie) water, especially in KTP.

We were in Malelane one time when there were more campers than the camp could legally accommodate. The campers were of the same opinion "what's the big deal if there is one or two extra people staying". It was explained to us that the ablution facilities could only accommodate a certain number.

One could then argue that they would give up their shower for one day, etc.
What if there is a fire or some other disaster? The camp is probably insured for "x" number of people, not "x + ....".

I'm guessing there are a lot of reasons that aren't always all that obvious.
That's my 2 cents worth.

hm....I'm not sure - all the other camps both in KTP and in other parks have what they call the base rate and then it's usually still possible to put more people in the tent / bungalow / chalet, if you pay an additional charge...I'd find it strange if the absolution system was overstrained when 10 or 11 people stay in a wilderness camp instead of 8 - after all, 8 people may use up as much water as 10 or 11... - nevertheless, an interesting thought

Up to a couple of years ago there was no problem with taking a child with to the wilderness camps. We did it all the time. Then suddenly there was a lot of complaining about kids in wilderness camps, and the rules changed. Another classic example of a few bad apples spoiling it for everyone. There might be some other reasons for not allowing kids, but I don't understand them.
The fact of the matter is that the wilderness camps are now only meant for the people who don't have kids, or want to leave their kids at home when they go on holiday. It's a pity really - I miss Grootkolk....

Safety of the child perhaps? It is smaller and more attractive, that was what I was told
I would not take a child to a wilderness camp anyway
There is no space to move, it has to shut up all the time. Children can't, they have too much energy
When you are in the middle of young children you don't mind the constant yelling 'hyena alert' (KTC family tent) of your son, after all you told him so to do this. We had a family of 4 in KK next to us and the noise was incredible listening to battery operated game things to keep the children busy. They were walking around outside just if nothing could ever happen to them.
Going on a holiday is not leaving the children at home, but compromise when they grow up. Some things are not possible during a stage, but you will enjoy them more later when you can
It might be the few bad apples that spoils it, but hey if a chalet state 2 adults and 2 children, why o why does a group shows up with 5 adults. What can they do at reception in Nossob? send them back to where? they always show up late. Campsites are overloaded with tents and cars and people. I have seen 'clever solutions' 4 adults in a chalet, a 4x4 parked outside with roof tent so the additional people could sleep in the tent and car and we being just 2 looking for some nice time to enjoy the sounds of the Kalahari could only wish these neighbours would go on a sunset evening and night drive together!
The tents in the wilderness camps at the moment are too small to place in an extra bed.
If children are allowed, make an extra cabin in Urikaruus, KK, Grootkolk like the family tents in KTC, with two extra (child) beds, but what do you do when you have 3 children, squeeze in a fold up matrass ? and just like giving the honeymooners extra privacy give the child friendly tents extra privacy
I know for sure that when my children had that age, they behaved like little explorers always looking for something. How can you restrict that, it is like telling children that they are not allowed to use their imagination.
Give a little, take a little, but leaving it up to the tourist to decide, is not a good idea.

Good logic Jonkers.

Nowadays, a lot of parents don't discipline their children and others need to be entertained a lot.

Widerness camps are really for the more hard core visitors.

well this could get in to a very 'hot' subject

as ice has posted the topic then be prepared for other peoples opinion.

mine is very clear....i go to wilderness camps because there are less huts/units therefore less people and NO children. i don't want anywhere to be disturbed by large groups of adults or children running riot and/or making a noise that is upsetting my well earned hoilday, so to reduce the chances of being disturbed i book the most out of the way camps. there are larger units available within the main camps so use them and leave us couples without children to enjoy our holiday how we want too -

i'm sorry if this sounds harsh but most people were of the same mind until the day when their world changed, i.e. children came along or other members of their family wished to join them without being able to afford to pay for their own accommodation and then 'the rules must be changed because i said so'

again sorry for the rant but i hope SANParks do keep inforcing the rules.....i abide by them.

Russ

Hi There,

It is a very intresting Point to discuss. Generally I have the oppinion, Camps which are not fenced Children are not allow there to stay. Because they will be not able to realise the danger, they are actualle careless. Apart from that, Kids, are often very loud, which will spoil the mood of the other guests.

On the other Hand, I have met a lot of adults wich are even more missbehaving then Children. And you will not be able to exclude them. We also have to be aware earlier the Children get tought to thread Nature with care, the probability that they will do it in future is high.

But if you exclude Childen SANP must make sure, that alternatives for Familys exist. Evenso there are valid points not to allow Children the access, there will be other Arguments which question it. We all have to be aware, that SANP (best exampel the Forum) is for everybody. No exclusion, which will makes the whole thing very difficult.

To conclude, when alternatives exist we can talk about exclusions of Children, but those People must pay for their Luxury. One of the Post mentioned, that he/she wants to enjoy silence and more space. No Problem with that, but then you have to pay. That is Luxury. Evenso the exampel might be bad at all, but in a Train you can´t exclude children either, except you will sit in First class. Because most families are not able to face the price. For the sake of security the Alternatives must be fenced.

I´m against it that Children and Families are completly excluded, just talk about myself, I always (evenso I was aged 9) really enjoyed NP. It calms me down. It was for me a big pleassure. But the Arguemnt with Security is def. not to be underestimated.

Best Regards

sorry but some of you are missing my point:

SANParks does allow children into wilderness camps when they are older than 12 years and I was not (although I could) argueing with this particular restriction

however, if the child is older than 12 years and thus officially allowed to stay in a wilderness (much to the dislike of some posters, I assume) why force a family of 3 or 5 to book an extra unit (and thereby taking away the chance for other people to stay there)? it should be left to the parents or grandparents or whomever to decide if the unit is big enough to accomodate three people; after all, two big adults may need just as much space as two thin adults and one thin teenager. and by the way, I am pretty sure nobody does control how tiny some tents on the camp sites are

ice, I don't know if you have ever visited Gharaghab, Bitterpan, or any of the other bush camps. The chalets are hardly big enough for 2 people with their luggage. We have been to all of them, and know exactly how small they are. There is NOWHERE for anybody extra, unless they sleep in the shower cubicle. The linen, rubbish, etc, has to be transported over long distances to these camps, and extra people are not catered for. There must be some places left where people who want to spend some quiet time can do so. You will also see that the prices of these camps are quite substantially higher than the prices of the larger camp accommodations. Nossob, MataMata and Kalahari Tented Camp are geared for children, TKC even has a swimming pool, why spoil the experience for other visitors of bush camps by insisting on taking children - why not respect the rules that are made for a reason? At Gharaghab we were confined to our tent for a whole day and a night, because of lions in the camp. What will you do with children in a situation like that? We couldn't even get to our vehicle. How long wil a child of any age stay happy in a cramped space in a dangerous situation? Do you really want to expose your kids to danger like that?

to tell you the truth, Lonehill_Birders: yes, I've been to Gharagab and KTC so I know how big (or small, by your defintion) the tents are - once again, if I perceive tent as too small to accomodate my family should be my decision and nobody else's

your entire argument again resolves around children but that is not the point - children are allowed, once they are 12 years old, don't you get that? I / they can make as much noise as they want if they are older than 12 years and stay in their own unit.

if I had two kids and booked two units, your entire argument about safety issues and noise issues and whatever else issues woud collide! Acutually, it would also collide if I was willing to pay for two units although I would only need one. and please don't tell me how to take care of my child, I believe that's none of your business! and what do I / they need a pool for if we decided to visit the park in winter?

you say this rule is there for a reason, yet you did still not tell me this very reason. I've also talked about this subject with an extremely well respected member of this community who at the same time happens to work for SANParks...his answer: "That's politics, nothing else"

last but not least: believe it or not but KTP is not the only national park in the world that has unfenced wilderness camps. Up in Botswana pretty much all the parks I have been to have the very same policy: children above the age of 12 are treated like adults - they may stay there, they may go on walks, etc - just like in KTP.

Hi Lonehill Birders the points you have raised above is actually supporting ice's argument of why is SANParks against a child sharing a tent with two adults at a wilderness camp. At the moment you are forced to book two units, but in reality will only use one unit. According to the rules my 12 year old is allowed to join us, but as you mentioned above is it safe for the party to be split in two with either the children in one unit and adults in the other. When we go on holiday and specially at wilderness camps we would like to eat together in the evening and sleep in the same unit and not split the party of 3 people. Surely if I am confortable with 3 people in a unit no one is going to tell me I am not allowed.

We have booked at Gharagab for our next holiday in Dec and it was no problem to make the reservation for 3 people in 2 tents. As you have mentioned above it will not be safe to split and in the end one unit will not be used. In that case its fine with parks policy, because they will receive the payments on two units, but at an extra cost for us who will still be cramped in one.

The point ice and myself want to make is why does the park discriminate against families of 3 or 5. Besides the fact that one must pay extra it is also often difficult to get bookings for two units, thus limiting oppurtunities to get a booking even if you are prepared to pay more.



On this point I totally disagree with you and actually feel insulted. How can you argue that I will not respect the park rules if I bring my child along to a wilderness camp. There are no rules against children 12 year and older number one and secondly children are not the ones that will spoil your wilderness experience. The ones that do spoil it are adults and the very same adults, if they had children, that will not make sure the children are quiet in the evening.

Even when staying at Nossob I apply the same rules for wilderness camps and also expect a quiet atmosphere, which does not happen during school holidays. The only way for me to experience KTP in peace is by visiting the wildernes camps, but since last year were suddenly prevented without booking an extra unit. My child visited the wilderness camps since 2006 when he was 7 years old, but now I am in a way restricted.

Last year we had a booking at Grootkolk for 3 nights with the total number of people at the camp 5 plus the 3 of us. We were not allowed to book in unless the 3rd person book somewhere else even although the total number of people would not have exceeded 8 in the camp. The water consumption and linen argument does not hold for me either as they will not give you extra linen for the 3rd person. If you booked 3 nights it means only one change, while with 3 different bookings it would have been 3 times more. Maybe a new rule must be 2 night minimum then.

If water and garbage was areal concern how is it possible that extra units at these camps are planned for the near future. Sorry I feel the same as ice and feels there is some conspirancy against families with children.

This is a polite request to please keep your responses to each other within the rules of the forum. i.e civil and respecting each other's point of view.

Sorry if you didn't like my comments, ice, and I never told you how to take care of your child. Nobody is allowed to make as much noise as they want to - there's a thing called consideration, and in confined spaces we all have to consider our neighbours, who perhaps came to the bush camps for the simple reason of enjoying the silence and solitude of nature, not to listen to " your 2 children" making as much noise as they want to. It may be politics, we, the forumites don't make the rules, we just abide by them.
PRWN, I'm not being insulting, I don't mention you as a person, but generalise, because, you and ice and your families may behave in a manner that would not disturb others, but lots of visitors to the parks let their kids run around and make a lot of noise, which, for some people, is a source of irritation. I also have children, and have taken my child to KTP on several occasions, so I feel for you. It's no use shooting the messenger, though. I'm amazed at the hostility towards me, as I'm surely allowed to voice an opinion, just as you are?

LB,

There are families that shows consideration for their neighbours, but at the moment they are totally frustrated with the way the camp atmosphere are during school holidays.

We must also have the right to enjoy that very same experience you would like to find at KTP but can't without cashing out nearly R3000 a night and with luck get a booking for 2 units. It is for this reason it is asked why can't park management consider school children between 12 - 18 years to share with there parents or at least as for future plans consider 1 family unit per camp.

I am sure there must have been good reason why it changed, but still feel there is merit in allowing young children to share. At Bitterpan and Urikaruus units are interconnected, but for the other camps it makes no sense to stay in 2 units.

Its not a personnal attack, but by generalising you open your self for critic. Maybe I do fall in a 5 % minority group, but I am sure there might be more families than we think that want to teach there children to enjoy nature.