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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Welcome Rheeder; you'll find a loving and supportive family of pet lovers on this thread - GREAT place to be. :D :D :D

threedogs wrote:
It sounds OWN like you are doing everything right and all that you can do at present and assessing things as you go. :thumbs_up:

You are right and I perfectly agree that when we take any dog/s into our lives it is up to us to try absolutely everything to ensure that there is a safe and stable home for all for the rest of their lives. For me re-homing would be an absolute last resort and I would only ever have done so if we couldn't keep them separated. Sadly, for us, gradual re-introduction and modified behaviour (from us!) didn't work but that is probably because we were not effective enough at doing it. :? I have seen Cesar Milan re-home dogs on his show on just a few occasions and I think it is a case of difficult doggie personalities combined with owners who couldn't successfully follow modified behaviour patterns and routines and we probably fall into this catergory. :redface: Although goodness knows we tried very hard. :lol:

I think you are really on the right track. Only time will tell and I wish you the very best of luck. I hope you found that like me, writing it down by 'talking' here on the forum helps clarify the situation in your own mind and also eases the worry a little. :)


Thank you yet again for your excellent input and support, 3D. :clap: :clap: We read a query that Cesar (or a trusted responder of his) replied to on his website that mirrors your and our situation quite well: essentially, the responses centred on modifying behaviour and boundaries - which you have indicated you addressed fully - and also that implementing such changes is a 24-hour-a-day (reminds me of having an infant again) process. Cesar also said to approach a behaviourist if the situation is not resolving.

I don't think that, in your case, 3D, you were too ineffective - after all, you read up a lot before going ahead. Perhaps it was just a case of a dog that wouldn't come right despite trying everything; I have seen Cesar several times trying various things and failing, whereupon he would then take that dog for rehabilitation at his dog psychology centre, which could take months. Like people, there are those dogs refractory to intervention.

We're being much stricter with Calico of late and it seems that she is beginning to get the idea, although we're not naive in thinking that the situation will necessarily resolve within a few days or even weeks. We'll see how things are going in a few months time. Here's holding thumbs. :pray: Relocation is also our very last resort.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:32 pm 
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:D :gflower:
Wishing all the best for those coming months. :thumbs_up:

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:33 pm 
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Carol g wrote:
OWN I wish I had advice for you, it's so difficult and jealousy plays a big roll in their behavior, I agre to try to keep them separate at least while you're not there. Do hope all turns out well in the end.

Have you managed to sort something out with the body corporate yet or are you still battling with them ?


Thank you for being there for us, Carol :clap: Jealousy, in any form and with any type of being, can indeed be a difficult thing to address because the problem really lies with the one who is feeling the jealousy, and change must actually come from there. We can but try and show the "jealousee" that her feelings are unfounded. :hmz:

Thank you so much for asking after the body corporate's issues we had. :thumbs_up: In fact, since we sent them the last letter in January, we haven't heard a single thing from them on the matter. If they are indeed addressing the situation, they are taking an awfully long time about it. Me thinks ... shhhhhh ... that perhaps they have weighed up their options and decided that, since none of the dogs are a problem for them, they will let matters rest. Here's :pray: it is so.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:54 pm 
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Wow OWN, it sounds like you have a major problem.

I am not an expert , but have picked up a few things from the Cape Dog Club.

When a dog joins a home you ALL become a pack. The dog then finds its level in the pack, as you said when visiting MM. The humans MUST get a higher status in the pack by TAKING it by their BEHAVIOUR.

One must be very firm with the dog, especially in confrontational situations. Baby talk and gibberish puts you instsntly at the bottom.

We have a Rottweiler that is the sweetest dog you could wish to have, but it has pack dominance over my wife, who was 'soft' in the beginning. My children, who don't live at our house, are also above the dog in the pack, and get kisses and submissive behaviour when thay visit. My wife has to beg for the occasional kiss, whereas I get them anytime. I also take bones off her but my wife wouldn't try.

Where am I going here (I haven't a clue!). When we got this rottie as a pup, we had a 10 year old rottie that was not happy at all and we had to keep them apart even though they were both bitches. As the pup grew and we pampered the old girl, acceptance grew, until the old girl suddenly developed stomach 'turn' and had to be put down when the pup was 5 months.

Calico is the pack leader, and the humans need to take over and get higher in the pack than she is. Jealousy is a big factor, and you should always pamper her. The other dogs have been introduced and she is ensuring they are lower in the pack, and keeping them there. They expect less attention. But you both also need to discipline Calico all the time to let her know she is below both of you in the pack. Feed her first of the dogs, but make her 'sit' and wait until you say 'eat'. It might take a while, but you need to get there. I hope it helps.

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Last edited by Bush Baptist on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Of course the biggest mystery to me is that my being head of the human pack without question doesn't translate to the dogs? :tongue:
Looks like the humans in the pack are more easily bluffed than the canines. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:20 pm 
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threedogs wrote:
Of course the biggest mystery to me is that my being head of the human pack without question doesn't translate to the dogs? :tongue:
Looks like the humans in the pack are more easily bluffed than the canines. :lol:


Precisely :thumbs_up:

When you see on telly, the woman with a little runt on a cushion that growls when it wants something, and she jumps to it, you know darn well who is the pack leader.

btw, most married men THINK we are the pack leader :whistle:

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:35 pm 
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Bush Baptist wrote:
but it has pack dominance over my wife, who was 'soft' in the beginning.


It happened to me with all my dogs all my life BB! I'm a "softy" as far as my dogs are concerned! :tongue:

I'll hold thumbs that everything works out for Calico and the rest of the doggie family Onewithnature! :thumbs_up:

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Then you risk getting bitten and 'disciplined' Hilda. :hmz:

Another observation is that I am not scared of dogs, and usually make friends with any big dog, especially those that have been trained i.e. are down the pack. But the spoilt little yappers don't take kindly to me when I assume a dominant pack position and they think they are the leader.

Another point. If you have a big and a small dog, and the smaller one sits on your lap or furniture, you are asking for trouble, as the big one will be jealous and might take it out on the little one. Or an 'inside dog with an 'outside' dog.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:45 pm 
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BB I trained dogs for years obedience training, but unfortunately when it comes to my own dog, my border collie Gal, tells me exactly what to do :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:04 pm 
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Carol, what I learned from watching Cesar is that we see dogs encased in human emotions, and treat them as humans. As BB so accurately notes, they operate in a pack situation, with pack rules; and human rules as we are used to in society do not count. Especially too, dogs - and most wild animals - do not display concern, pity, empathy, and the like, for those around them. Hence, the pack leader does what is best for the survival of the pack - if a lower-order dog gets out of hand, it is swiftly put back where it belongs. If one has ever watched lions, wolves, and wild dogs, on a hunt, it is immediately apparent how well they all co-ordinate simply BECAUSE each one knows his or her role in the group. [Which reminds me why our young adults and children are struggling right now to find their way: discipline (=self-respect) has fallen by the wayside, and many are struggling to know their roles and where their paths lead; but, that is another topic altogether. :wink: ]

BB, we are indeed upping the ante and Calico is being taught the art of listening; yes, it will ultimately take a long time, but it seems as if we are already getting results. I agree that one must be firm, and indeed consistent, from the very beginning because, to do so later on is more difficult and consumes more time. Most humans, we've realised, make the mistake of molly-coddling or pampering a dog - and therefore elevating them to regal, top-dog status. The problem isn't in the dispensing of love; it is when the love is given at the wrong time that issues arise. Dogs must listen to their leader, and ONLY when the leader decides it's okay, can the love be given. People make the mistake of running after the dog, hence the dog becomes the leader.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:19 pm 
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Very true OWN :gflower:

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:52 pm 
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Spot on OWN. Keep it up, you are sprinting in the right direction.

When the dog is out of hand you need to 'growl' very loudly, not say in a sweet voice "Mommy is not happy with little wumwums/nunu".

My rottie goes moggy when I get home. She gets a lot of love, but on the rare ocasion she steps out of line I "GROWL".

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:41 am 
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Bush Baptist wrote:
Spot on OWN. Keep it up, you are sprinting in the right direction.


:thumbs_up: Thank goodness I'm still young enough to sprint, BB. :wink:

Quote:
When the dog is out of hand you need to 'growl' very loudly, not say in a sweet voice "Mommy is not happy with little wumwums/nunu".


:clap: :clap: I think this should be applied to a much wider audience than just dogs, eh BB? :hmz: Nothing like calm, assertive, corrective behaviour to manage the insolent outbursts. Well, at least we can say it worked far better in the "old days". :roll:

Quote:
My rottie goes moggy when I get home. She gets a lot of love, but on the rare occasion she steps out of line I "GROWL".


Good on you, BB; can definitely see you're top dog. Although, what did you say earlier about human relationships: the man often only thinks he's top dog? :tongue:

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:04 am 
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We had a horrible day yesterday (yet again - sixth time in six months) when our larger dog, Calico, AGAIN attacked our 12+-year-old bulldog, Tessie. Tessie is tough but she doesn't deserve this in her tender, elderly years. We were just saying how well Calico was responding to new boundaries and implementations, when suddenly it all went out of control.

We had been setting new instructions and boundaries for Calico, ignoring the behaviours we didn't want (and disciplining verbally when necessary), and praising and loving her when she DID listen. She seemed gentle and responsive - she is a VERY intelligent dog, when she wants to be :roll: - but all went awry yesterday just before lunchtime. My SO, Siobain, took Tessie out in the sun for a short walk (she's getting much fitter and slimmer compared to when we got her in October) while I hung up the washing. When we came back in, it was clear that Calico was jealous that Tessie had gone outside and she hadn't. She hemmed Tessie in and, before we could act, she attacked her.

One of the hardest things to break up - without getting bitten yourself - is a full-out dog fight. Sadly, Tessie's teeth are not fully functional, and she has difficulty in flexing her neck and body, and so she couldn't get to Calico when the bigger dog attacked her rear end. As a result, Calico twisted her onto her back and then was at her throat, rendering her helpless. In that stress it is very difficult to keep a clear head and think, as time is of the essence. Both Siobain and I smacked and kicked Calico and I tried throwing water in her face, but we might as well have been flies around a buffalo; it made absolutely no difference. We also had the couch in the way, so I couldn't get to the front of the fight. Calico was in full red zone and it was clear she wanted to kill Tessie. Even though Siobain picked Calico up off the ground, she wouldn't let go of Tessie's body. When Calico went for Tessie's throat, we thought it was the end.

Siobain was magnificent and it was her actions that saved Tessie's life: she lay across the dog to protect her, and then had the presence of mind to roll on her side so that she could squeeze Calico's muzzle tightly together and shut off the bigger dog's nostrils. Despite this, Calico refused to let go until, forced to grab a breath, she pulled away. In that instant, I threw a bowl of water into Calico's face and kicked her on her rump. Finally, Calico ran away and we locked her into the kitchen (we stay in a townhouse complex, so we cannot lock her outside).

By this time, the vet had closed, so I administered Rescue Remedy and tried to get Tessie to drink some rehydration solution I had made up. However, she wasn't interested in drinking as she was in some shock, trembling and shaking noticeably. We gave her some bread soaked in the solution, which she ate, and then we sat with her and covered her to warm her up. After the third dose of Rescue, she had calmed down significantly, and then she slept.

At 3.30 p.m. we took Tessie to the vet and he kept her there until after six o'clock. When we picked her up, she was still somewhat groggy from the anaesthetic. The vet had shaved her rump and, for the first time, we could see about a dozen puncture wounds there. Her throat and neck had another three, but the vet said he wasn't too concerned about those. Because there had been serum build-up from the last attack on Tessie's rump, the vet inserted a Penrose Drain there - a double-ended open pipe which went below the flesh, with both ends sticking out - in order to drain any potential infection. He had stitched the drain in place, but all the bite wounds were left open to heal, having been thoroughly cleaned of hair and debris. Though a couple of the bites are quite deep, it looks very positive, especially as Tessie is still able to walk, albeit with difficulty.

At the vets instructions, I started antibiotic therapy last night, and was happy to hear that the metronidazole and amoxycillin I had decided to use with the last attack was exactly the right thing to use. We will be cleaning the wounds daily and keeping Tessie quiet and calm to aid healing.

In order to control Calico more effectively and prevent her from ever biting Tessie again, we have ordered a muzzle for her - not sure why we didn't think of this simple remedy earlier - which should hopefully arrive this afternoon. We will keep the two dogs separated as much as needed - for example feeding and ablution times - but will use the muzzle on Calico when we allow them to all be with us together. I think the worst is now over. :pray:

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 Post subject: Re: Do you have a pet?
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:27 am 
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OWN I fully can empathise with you. Reading this brought back to me the full panic and fright and stress of being in EXACTLY the same situation. It always shook me up and upset us very much. :(

The more dominant dog will pick up on what it perceives as special attention from you for the dog she considers lower in the pecking order. Result - she tries to put that dog back in its place = dogfight.

I was fortunate in that the two dogs concerned are small and I found the only way to break up a fight was to sit on top astride the dominant dog and grab her around the muzzle (like you guys did essentially) and the same way, wait for them to have to breath and relax the mouth. At least enough for me to prise that dominant one off and scoop it up and away. Much more challenging with bigger dogs! It is hard not to panic when one dog's life is at risk but I became better at clearing my head straight away and taking action as tme went on. Especially as I was often home alone when it happened.

We too bought a muzzle to put on Tokkie when they were together. This did work to some extent although she did not particularly like having it on. We found that one that is made of thick material rather than the old metal cage type design is best. The hardest thing was finding one that she could not rub/scratch off! This happened a couple of times so supervision is essential.

I really, really hope that you get through this difficult period. :k

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