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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:27 am 
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I'm so glad that the "if you question then you don't support the troops" line has died away here in the states.

I haven't seen the reports of mixed messages so I can't comment, but, the response provided on here for an isolated incident was fine.

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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:51 am 
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Veering way off topic again...

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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:04 pm 
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Stark wrote:
I think there is nearly universal agreement that KNP should not be used as a freeway, and the discussion is around whether this 1 instance is an isolated occurrence or not.
The cardinal point is whether this isolated occurence should have occured in the first place. Wedges and thin edges and all that.

Johan


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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:12 pm 
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4O4-5O4 wrote:
Now that I am in discussion with a real expert in all matters, I would be very interested to hear from Johanrebel as to how he suggests SANParks go about combat rhino poaching and how a 600km long border with an neighbouring country does 'not wash'?
My point was, and is, that a park which is losing rhinos to poachers at an alarming rate is not managed well. There are reasons for this, and there are things that can be done about it, but the fact is that the park is currently not well-managed. You claim it is, I'm pointing out why it is not. Should you be willing to concede that the park is not properly managed, then you will find me willing to discuss what can be done about it.

Johan


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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:19 pm 
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johanrebel wrote:
My point was, and is, that a park which is losing rhinos to poachers at an alarming rate is not managed well. There are reasons for this, and there are things that can be done about it, but the fact is that the park is currently not well-managed. You claim it is, I'm pointing out why it is not. Should you be willing to concede that the park is not properly managed, then you will find me willing to discuss what can be done about it.

Johan

Johan, is the above merely your opinion, or do you have facts and figures and scientific research/papers that can substantiate the above statements of yours? Particularly the part I have highlighted in bold in the quote above.

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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:26 pm 
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Weltenman wrote:
I do not recall one instance where a decision was made that negatively influenced their parks that they are looking after.
Come again?

Hmm . . . how about the decisions to

- drill a zillion boreholes
- build dams and weirs all over the place
- shoot ("cull") thousands of elephants, buffalo, hippo, predators etc.
- build a golf course

and so forth, and so forth.

Some of these decisions were undoubtedly made with the best intentions, and even based on scientific evidence, but the negative consequences are indisputable.

Johan


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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:44 pm 
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DinkyBird wrote:
Johan, is the above merely your opinion, or do you have facts and figures and scientific research/papers that can substantiate the above statements of yours? Particularly the part I have highlighted in bold in the quote above.
It is really dead simple:

A park which is losing hundreds of rhinos to poachers is by definition not well-managed. If it were well-managed, there would be no poaching.

Now, there may well be reasons for why SANParks isn't very successful (yet) in its fight against poaching, but that's immaterial. Until they get poaching under control, nobody can describe the KNP as well-managed. Trying hard is not good enough, blaming others (the Mozambicans, the length of the border) is not good enough. "Well-managed" is defined by results, not intentions.

That SANParks is successful in other respects (e.g. providing clean towels, making sure the restaurants serve good food at reasonable prices and don't close for weeks or months) is also irrelevant. Partially well-managed is not the same as well-managed.

Johan


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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:58 pm 
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Weltenman wrote:
If they feel that the environment would survive by eliminating one animal species, I am sure they would do it. Heck, the previous regime was convinced this was the way to go, ruthlessly eliminating thousands of animals as they felt that this was correct.
They felt they that was correct, but the consensus now is that they were wrong. So . . . your point is? Not that we should trust and unquestioningly accept any and every decision made by SANParks, I hope?

Weltenman wrote:
Do you think you will tell the rangers out in the veld tonight, protecting your rhinos and putting their, not your, lives on the line that they are not "caring enough"? They work for SANParks, they are thus SANParks!
The KNP suffered an elephant poaching epidemic in the 80s. This was only brought under control once SANParks had fired most of their field rangers. Guess why that was necessary? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not casting aspersions on the current field rangers. My point is simply this: categorically stating that all SANParks employees are by definition beyond reproach is ridiculous.

Johan


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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:16 pm 
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gjorgi wrote:
Mmmmm, just read through all 5 pages of comments. Very interesting opinions all around.....it does however seem that poor 404-504 is taking a bit of a beating from everyone else
I afraid that 404-504 set the tone with his first contribution to this thread, which came across as strident, imperious and not a little condescending. Laying down the law according to 404-504 and then finishing off with "Get it?" is not exactly the right way to make friends.

Johan


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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:20 pm 
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:hmz: When tough questions are asked people are accused off being negative, having ulterior motives or political agendas. Not the first time it has happened

Weltenman wrote:
jan.dup, don't know if that is the way Sharifa is feeling, she has made her feeling known against government, SANParks and the HR's in the past few weeks, so that is why I was asking.



Quote:
I do not recall one instance where a decision was made that negatively influenced their parks that they are looking after.


Correction - not their Parks :wink: Custodians looking after our Parks :D

Well The KTP Cycle Challenge was a bad decison and had to be stopped and it was because negative people raised their concerns and when okie said this, he was challenged by a Mod.

okie was supported by Duke Ellieton and the whole topic vaporized into thin air :roll:

I have been asking questions of people in Authority long before you were born. I have lost friends and family who asked questions louder than I did so I have the right to ask questions and you and will label me as negative and Anti Government :lol: :lol: :lol:

For your information some of those that you accuse of having ulterior motives andthis VHR Project

Funny that not one Mod or VHR, except for Porridge, could mention the name Duke Ellieton and only Matthys could mention Lionspoon

Lionspoon :gflower: :k

Charlize, Jacliz and her SO, PJL, melph68 and melphs dad from Oz, RonnieL, koedoe, Spots, Meandering Mouse,chirinda, p@m (RIP Friend), wildflowergirl, Melrockson, Super Mongoose, hilda, Boorgatspook, mel123, Crested Val, chirinda, kyknetta, H. erectus, Matthys, DinkyBird, bert, anne-marie and grannyb

:clap: :clap: :clap: to all invloved in the project

Glad this project started by Lionspoon and Duke Ellieton is well on the way and will bring some exciting sightings to our homes :D

Bottom line is do not question :naughty:

Is the Park well managed. Well I have been visiting Kruger since 1961. I see a lot more littering, speeding, road kills, dirty ablutions and toilets, bog paper at look out points.

I know thirty something Roan Antelope died and we never got a reason

I know a rhino census was not done allegedly because a helicopter was not working.

I know Berg en Dal recently did not have a first aid kit or a first aider.

I know I have not had my accommodation ready at 2.00pm on a few occasions last December.

{Content selectively quoted from a PM by one member to another member (not this poster) removed as this transgresses Rule # 9 }


Last edited by DinkyBird on Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
See mod note above


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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:23 am 
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johanrebel wrote:
gjorgi wrote:
Mmmmm, just read through all 5 pages of comments. Very interesting opinions all around.....it does however seem that poor 404-504 is taking a bit of a beating from everyone else
I afraid that 404-504 set the tone with his first contribution to this thread, which came across as strident, imperious and not a little condescending. Laying down the law according to 404-504 and then finishing off with "Get it?" is not exactly the right way to make friends.

Johan


Johanrebel, allow me to clarify - it was not my sole intention to join this forum to make friends - I joined to make my thoughts and comments known - and if I happen to make friends along the way that's great, and if I happen to have people disagree and prefer not be my friend, that's fine with me too.

If you chose to view my comments as strident, that's how it was intended - I believe passionately in what I say. And if you chose to view my comments as being imperious - why, thank you, I'm flattered!!

My comments are not the law, (but thanks again, for suggesting it anyway) and if you feel that I am stepping on your toes, that's just perfect too, because that is the nature of good debate and I certainly stand by my original comments - the truck incident was a decision taken by SANParks to assist in transporting essential items to a community/destination, because of unrest in the surrounding areas.
And as I am one of the very fortunate FEW citizens in this country that has a roof over my head, running water and electricity and is privileged enough and wealthy enough to visit Kruger whenever I like, I accept that this decision by SANparks was taken with careful consideration, and, unless otherwise proven wrong (see me previous challenge comment earlier in the thread), I understand the decision and will continue to support it. Get it??

I will close by saying that I am not SANParks, I do not have the answers to rhino poaching and unlike some forum members, I certainly do not state or pretend that I do. What I do have is an open mind, the ability to understand good reason, and a sense of humanity for people who are less fortunate than most of us who visit Kruger National Park.

BTW - Johanrebel- I am still very keen to hear how you will end rhino-poaching. This is not the right forum no doubt, so I challenge you to begin a thread and share your 'expert' knowledge on the subject. Or, point me to a previous thread where you may have already done so. I am sure many forum members will agree with me, expert advice should definitely be tabled.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:05 am 
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Sharifa wrote:
Funny that not one Mod or VHR, except for Porridge, could mention the name Duke Ellieton and only Matthys could mention Lionspoon

Dear Sharifa

The SANParks VHRs are indeed very grateful for the initiative and effort put in by yourselves. Your, Duke Ellieton and Lionspoon's efforts have been publicly recognised. And will again be recognised in the SANParks VHRs Annual Report 2014.

The Annual Report of 2013 was circulated to all senior SHRs and SANParks management and posted on these forums, in two Forums. Please see here and here.

Quote:
The mobile webcam project and auctions of Sharifa’s beautiful works to raise funds for the mobile webcam and webcam maintenance were well supported and we thank Lionspoon, Duke Ellieton and Sharifa for their hard work. link and an example of one of the five works Sharifa donated link

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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:15 am 
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johanrebel wrote:
DinkyBird wrote:
Johan, is the above merely your opinion, or do you have facts and figures and scientific research/papers that can substantiate the above statements of yours? Particularly the part I have highlighted in bold in the quote above.
It is really dead simple:

A park which is losing hundreds of rhinos to poachers is by definition not well-managed. If it were well-managed, there would be no poaching.



I agree with johanrebel

Here are the numbers for Rhinos Poached in Kruger going back to 2010:
2010 - 146
2011 - 252
2012 - 425
2013 - 606
2014 - 113 up to 14 March

The numbers speak for themselves. Blaming the border and the Mozambicans and the full moon does not cut it. The border was there during the elephant poaching Johan mentioned. The fight against elephant poaching was well managed.

Is the Wild Card Well Managed? The change was announced on 19 october 2010. Some people are still waiting for cards. Many have to carry their confirmation letter with them and there is no sign of any rewards.

A Senior Manager not knowing that the cycle challenge was going to be in the riverbed and not on the road - bad management I would say. The communication on the Cycle Challenge (or lack thereof) - not well managed at all

johanrebel wrote:
The KNP suffered an elephant poaching epidemic in the 80s. This was only brought under control once SANParks had fired most of their field rangers. Guess why that was necessary? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not casting aspersions on the current field rangers. My point is simply this: categorically stating that all SANParks employees are by definition beyond reproach is ridiculous.


Johanrebel, Dr Mabunda is well aware of the problem and I quote him from here

Quote:
Mr Mabunda said that there were internal threats as well. They were not all with SANParks. There were wolves dressed in sheepskin. Some game rangers and other officials were involved in illegal activities. This was widespread. Conditions of service had been changed despite resistance from the unions. Integrity tests had been conducted. One area on the Mozambique border had experienced losses of over thirty rhino annually. After changing management, this had stopped altogether.


Good Managers will not get involved in fraudulent activities. I would expect Good Managers to speak out against fraud


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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:19 pm 
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And now we have veered well and truly into the wilderness.

Stay on topic. There are other topics open for discussing VHR projects and poaching, please use them.

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 Post subject: Re: heavy trucks
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:49 pm 
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Steady on Sharifa.... :naughty:

You should always give your opponents a graceful way out.

Hopefully the 'heavy trucks' in this discussion are well and truly nowhere near Kruger any more. :roll:

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