SANParks.org Forums

Don't want to be a "Sherlock" here, but if the river is poisoned, why aren't the crocs dying further upstream!?

Maybe the Mozambiquan Massingir crocs should be compared?

The Loskop Dam comparison is very interesting.

A remotely possible link between the two could be that unusually high rainfall over the past decade has flooded nesting sites at Loskop, as the rising water from Massingir has done to the Gorge...

Maybe some sort of stress!?

Trying to think "out of the box" here...

Just some thoughts on this.
The variable that caught my attention was the seasonal change.
This must be where the biggest clue is IMHO.
Tough as they are ,crocs are very sensitive to heat changes.
It appears as if they're dying in winter .Not summer.It probably means they're not suffering the same effects during a period of higher metabolism because they're actively filtering and dispersing enough of the problem element or cause.It does not mean they're in 100% health.
But they're not dying because they're much more active.

The moment the temperature drops and the metabolism slows dramatically, the poisons accumulate and the metabolism isn't working at an efficient enough rate to expel any poisons so they accumulate and the liver develops problems and the animal dies. Point is the poisons or trace elements that are most likely the cause of this are possibly/probably present year round.

Its something related to this specific system.
As far as I know the others are all fine.
Whether or not the cause is in dodgy barbel in the food chain or metals in the water or the stirred up sediments after rains......who knows.
I really hope the people involved behind the scenes get a bit of good luck on this one and stumble across something that someone hasn't been thought of until now.
Liver is the frontline filter and that's whats getting them.
I think they should remove a few live animals next summer or maybe even now, get liver samples, put tracking devices in and do the same to at least some of those same animals that they are able to retrieve again in at a later stage and compare results.
I know what a nightmare that will be but it might give very valuable clues to their inability to deal with the cause when its cold.
This cant carry on.
There wont be many left if it goes on like this and that has ramifications for the whole system.
There wouldn't be much point in re-populating the river either if they were just going to die because the problem hasn't gone away.
Depressing stuff-------------

Very interesting read AjayB, i most defianatelky think it is possible as they are cold blooded and makes sense

it is very tragic

I have not managed to read all the articles but did anyone read anything about if they mentiioned the approximate ages of the crocodiles?

Ok, another “out of the box” scenario…..the level of the toxins in the water might not be so high that it affects the crocs upstream, but with the raising of the dam wall and thus the damming up of more of this water, might cause the toxins to be more concentrated in this area….it will also explain why these deaths happen in winter….the water level in the river is lower and I suppose less water is released from the dam…. The toxins get more concentrated?

Media release on Croc deaths-water our sacred heritage

AjayB and Jumbo - I'm no fundi, but perhaps there is some truth in your conclusions?? I do hope they find a solution quickly, it's heart breaking to read and see...

Combination problem, Moz is after many mines, settlements etc. The "bad" water washed into the sea but, now Massinger stops that. Massinger caused the deaths as a result or was it SA, not doing the correct thing environmentaly by their bad habits?

Welcome, and much appreciated info, AjayB!

Scipio, the dam has been there for decades, with some sort of croc population...

As has the pollution!

The problem with pollution though, is that is is never stagnant.
It has an accumulative affect that takes longer to deal with than to accumulate.

If there is a thorough and well constructed scientific environmental study done into mining which can put my fears to rest, then I might feel better.
However, I am not satisfied with the current lack of transparency.

The two issues related to mining that never seem to go away are the degradation of soil and the toxic waste that goes into the water.

I am prepared to accept that sometimes environmental mistakes are made due to lack of information or experience.
It might also be that there is an urgent need that causes a certain amount of short sightedness.
However, in terms of proposed mining on the Limpopo, which could have disastrous consequences on the whole Limpopo eco system, I see no scientific study for us to peruse and challenge if need be.

The lack of transparency and accountability is my concern

MM--Once again I must stress that I am not in possession of all the facts but my understanding was that the problem upstream of Loskop was mainly due to at least one disused mine and not a currently active one.
Apparently there are LOADS of these dormant shafts on the highveld too.
The ground water had filled the mine and brought up with it a host of very very alkaline sediments up from the bottom of the shaft.
These would normally never ever have caused the problems they are currently because they are contained where they are.
This stuff was burning virtually everything in its path on its way eventually into the river.
The video footage I saw was pretty dramatic.

Mine rehabilitation after a shaft has been exhausted I imagine is both extremely costly and probably quite difficult and most companies (if they're still solvent)seem to talk the talk but very few walk the walk.
And those that are rehabilitating old shafts are doing so only after they're certain that whatever is left inside is not going to become economically viable to extract in future.'
They'll definitely argue that point very strongly if confronted I'm sure.
This effectively leaves the problem for some future management team to deal with, if at all.
And all the time this ultra alkaline muck is working its way down into the main watercourses as happened with Loskop.

Mining is a nasty piece of the puzzle for sure-------

AjayB, thank you for that. I think that you have brought some very pertinent points to the fore.

Firstly, promises are made about soil rehabilitation, only at the end of the process, the mine is insolvent and its someone elses problem.

The fact that we are only now starting to be aware of the enviromental consequences of mining, yet there is still no accountability.

The areas of the proposed Mapugubwe mine is a water impoverished area. With scenarios of global warming, this is likely to become more of a factor than ever before. When I looked over the Limpopo river, I was not seeing some mighty beast, but a tame trickle. You cannot convince me that it can deal effectively with any level of pollution yet alone mining.

One small little light. I heard on the news a couple of days ago that Jacob Zuma was on his way to the G8 summit. One of the points up or discussion is global warming. He received a delegation from WWF who highlighted the need to be critical and careful of the granting of any new liscenses for coal mining.

If Jacob Zuma appoints a thorough enviromental study following the summit, he will have my vote in perpetuity

The situation with the Limpopo is a whole new can of worms.
I need to read some more.
Don't know enough about it to comment really other than to say that over the years there have been lots of noises and people have been trying to get at the coal seams in the northern bits of KNP .
No question its prime land both from a conservationists or mining magnates perspective.
Upstream of Mapungubwe would certainly affect the whole system I'm sure.
There is also the no doubt significant effect it would have on the more than 250 km of Limpopo National Park right down to the confluence with the Elephants below Massingir .

As for the Olifants system, its all the same water right back up to above Loskop and the Klein Olifants and all those smaller tributaries.
The system is sick for sure.
Its just finding the key to stop these animals dying -------

I heard a very worrying call on Radio702 a couple of weeks back.
It was from a person working at an Elephant rehabilitation sanctuary in Limpopo.
A mining company had been granted a license in close proximity to the sanctuary.
Regardless of the needs of the animals, the mining company was using their ground as a transport route for trucks ect..

They have been fighting the whole process in the courts, but the arrogance and blatant disregard of these companies is an outrage.
So far, the Elephant sanctuary is coming off second best.

As far as I am aware, the current company wanting to mine in Mapungubwe area is an Australian based company.
You cannot tell me that there is going to be concern for what is really foreign territory.
It is outrageous.

Their primary concern is profit.
Shareholders need "adequate" returns and the impact on the environment will always come off second best.
That's really where the laws and the government should be doing a more thorough and effective job in ensuring the generations in decades to come don't have to mop up after us.
Mining is a destructive messy business at the best of times.
We can never hope that the powers that be will simply stop granting concessions altogether and any "new" area is going to hold its own specific concerns for impacts that industry would have.
So where they are granted the conditions of the concession should say that mining houses must start out as they mean to go on.
Start cleaning up right from the word go.
Mop up as you start messing.
Rehabilitate RIGHT AWAY.
Include comprehensive environmental rehabilitation programs as integral parts of your costings.
Then it wont matter as much if its Aussie or Russian or whatever.
IMHO the conditions of concession and then the effective policing of that should be much stricter than I get the impression they are at the moment.
Don't forget either that the tax revenues that the government derives from mining are not insignificant sums of money.
For them its a balancing act------

I agree that one has to take into account the bigger picture and that includes revenue in a developing country. Problem is, the cost of enviromental damage is all to often an unknown factor which is difficult to assess prior to the fact.

The cost of pollution is likely to be the greatest threat that our world will ever face. That cost includes the threat of the "greenhouse" effect as well as chemicals pumped into our water systems.

Some of the more recent concerns include: falling fertility in men due to high eostrogen levels in the water; pharmacutical products killing vultures and other bird species; high levels of pharmaceuticals released into water systems through human sewerage and wastage... not to memtion the more obvious killing of fish and marine life. I need to take Omega 3 for health reasons, but I will only take from sources that come from areas uncontamiated by mercury. Studies have shown that many of our fish have toxic levels of mercury in their systems.