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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:26 am 
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:twisted: Thanks Mgoddard!

Now please post that photo of that AHH hanging upside down from that branch, further exposing that lovely naked tarsus.




:lol:



Image

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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:16 am 
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:funny: if there is a photo like that, you played a nasty one on us! :tongue:
Won't be able to recover from this :oops: , have to hang my bins up...


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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:12 am 
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:big_eyes:

Err ... don't post Mgoddard!!!!!! :doh:

:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:58 am 
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

The new photo of the mystery bird gives it all away :D African hawk Eagle it is! :thumbs_up:

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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:26 pm 
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.... and in my maiden message... straight into the fick of things!!

Mgoddard's Raptor:

I did like the idea of an African Hawk-Eagle until I noticed that the bird in the pic doesn't have trousers!! All eagles have trousers! I got out all my books (and Roberts MultiMedia) and every pic and photo shows the AHE to have trousers. (Mgoddard's raptor also appears a bit chunky to be an AHE).

I don't think that it is an African Harrier-Hawk either - I'm not sure that there is enough bareness on the face and AHH also have scrawny little legs. Mgoddard's raptor has strong legs. I think that the general shape is wrong too.

Thanks to Oberpriler and Cillie: What about a juv, pale, Black Sparrowhawk? Chunkier bird that doesn't have trousers!!

That's my R0.02c worth.

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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:14 pm 
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Welcome ... o courageous one! :thumbs_up: :clap:

I have been telling them about that naked tarsus, but hey ... :roll:

Black sparrow hawk .... :hmz: eye colour seems wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:45 am 
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Welcome to the forum Ian.

:slap: Don't tell me this is starting again!

In the new Raptor Guide of SA(Oberprieler&Cillié) there is a beautiful example of a Juv.AHE (page 87 second from the bottom on the left - the one with the apparent "bare" tarsi....Is it bare because it is so narrow feathered, or is it perhaps bare? :huh:

But please don't go :popcorn: , let's consider then the rest of the features; :rtm:
yellow eyes,
Pale window in the upperwing primaries,
Superior orbital rim, contributing to a fierce expression.
Narrow barring on the uppertail, a relative short tail comparing to a BSH's

But hey I've been wrong before, occasionally....... :tongue:


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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:47 am 
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ianjnb wrote:
.... and in my maiden message... straight into the fick of things!!

Mgoddard's Raptor:

I did like the idea of an African Hawk-Eagle until I noticed that the bird in the pic doesn't have trousers!! All eagles have trousers! I got out all my books (and Roberts MultiMedia) and every pic and photo shows the AHE to have trousers. (Mgoddard's raptor also appears a bit chunky to be an AHE).

I don't think that it is an African Harrier-Hawk either - I'm not sure that there is enough bareness on the face and AHH also have scrawny little legs. Mgoddard's raptor has strong legs. I think that the general shape is wrong too.


That's my R0.02c worth.


Yes , welcome indeed , Ian! It’s nice with new voices on the forum.

Hmm , black sparrowhawk is certainly a more likely candidate than african harrier-hawk in my opinion , but I think your reason for discarding african hawk eagle is wrong , Ian and Imberbe. It’s true that the eagles and hawk eagles have feathered legs , but , as mentioned several times in this debate , the tarsi can be only lightly feathered (sometimes called “leggings” as opposed to “trouser”) on some species and in some plumages. This character can be hard to see from a distance or in poor quality photos such as these , and I just interpret them differently than you guys. I’ve tried to enhance the photos of this bird , and even if it remains very difficult to say anything for sure , I think I can spot a slight colour difference between the foot (yellowish) and tarsus (beige) , and I even think I can see the separation line.

So why else isn’t it a BS? Well , Lizet has mentioned some of the problems , and I just have this to add:
A young BS should be quite prominently dark streaked on the body , and even if we see this bird from the back , that character should definitely be possible to see on these photos.
The legs are much to powerful for a BS , in my opinion. BS actually has pretty slender legs - even compared to AHH (!) - which is fairly easy to verify by doing an image Google search on that species.
Finally I think the proportions are just wrong for BS or any other sparrowhawk for that matter. This bird is fairly compact rather than long and slender , and the tail extension beyond the wingtips is to short for BS.

I still think this is an AHE but it would be much appreciated if anyone could tell me how to separate it from a young ayre’s hawk eagle. My African field guides are sadly lacking when it comes to identifying raptors in juvenile and immature plumages , and for a number of species it is also difficult to find good photos on the internet. Therefore it was very interesting to see you mentioning a new South African raptor guide , Lizet! I just tried to check out Amazon , but they don’t have it… - yet , I hope.


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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:00 pm 
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Lizet Grobbelaar wrote:
Welcome to the forum Ian.
:slap: Don't tell me this is starting again!

In the new Raptor Guide of SA(Oberprieler&Cillié) there is a beautiful example of a Juv.AHE (page 87 second from the bottom on the left - the one with the apparent "bare" tarsi....Is it bare because it is so narrow feathered, or is it perhaps bare? :huh:


Thanks Lizet! Not starting anything AGAIN - I only just got here :-D

Please post the ISBN of the book you refer to. My "old"?? Oberprieler & Cillié has a Southern Banded Snake-Eagle on page 87.

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:15 pm 
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Oberprieler and Cellies Raptor book has been republished. Previously it was sponsored by Sappi, now it is a new company. It is very similar, tinkered a bit with the look, added a few photos, but very much the same idea. There may be more differences, but I just had a quick page through in the shop.

I am just glad that it is available again, because it is an excellent book. The best available on the subject in my opinion. It gives good photos of the birds, which I much prefer above the illustrated versions, as those are human impressions. Granted, photos are not always 100% accurate ... but still!

Debates regarding eye colour for instance ... have a look at the photos and it does not always support statements made.

Excellent book ... get it if you can!

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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:26 pm 
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Thanks!

Yes, it is now sponsored by Vodacom and is called "The Raptor Guide of Southern Africa". I'm just battling to find who sells it and was hoping that an ISBN will help.

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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:43 pm 
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ianjnb wrote:
Thanks!

Yes, it is now sponsored by Vodacom and is called "The Raptor Guide of Southern Africa". I'm just battling to find who sells it and was hoping that an ISBN will help.


Hi Ian ,

I found this place selling the book:

http://www.africageographic.com/shop/pr ... egoryID=15

I don't know this field guide at all , but Imberbe seems very enthusiastic about it. On the other hand , if this book is his reason for insisting that Mgoddard's raptor is an African harrier-hawk , maybe it's not so good after all.... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:05 pm 
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:lol: Gee thanks man ... :wink: :lol:

The book has only recently been re-launched, but I have seen it at Exclusive books.

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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:25 pm 
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Hi JOL.
The new Raptor guide is a nice to have if you quickly want to refer to a photo of an individual with juv and imm. pic options as well and inflight black and white plates, we got it early as we published some photos. I use the "Raptors of the World" Helm identification guide when I need more info on plumage etc..

ianjnb,
Sorry was referring in general - The ISBN is 978-0-6204-3223-8


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 Post subject: Re: Identification Help - Raptors
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:45 am 
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"Last touch" on The Raptor Guide of Southern Africa....

Thanks for the ISBN Lizet.

I spoke to Craig and Netbooks don't stock it.

A search on the ISBN returned that the book is available here http://www.awn.co.za/featured/feat100.php for R195 incl VAT but excl P&P.

(I have no affiliation with Adventures With Nature (in fact I'd never heard of them until now)).

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