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 Post subject: Elephant vs Guide
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:59 pm 
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Another incident of a guide being trampled. This happened yesterday (21 June 2005)

Remember a while ago there was a similar story? This guide has the same surname (Ndlovu) that means Elephant.......

The story courtesy on News24

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:05 pm 
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This one wasn't in KNP though.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:07 pm 
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Quote:
Another incident of a guide being trampled.

That's vey sad.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:10 pm 
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He leaves a wife, Zhippa, and three children.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:18 pm 
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An article off News24.com

Stop SA elephant tours - demand

"The International Fund for Animal Welfare (Ifaw) has called for South Africa's growing elephant-back safari and tourism industry to be stopped immediately.

Jason Bell-Leask, Ifaw's director in Southern Africa, said: "It needs to be stopped, and it needs to be stopped now."

His call came in the wake of the trampling to death of a man by a bull elephant at Knysna on Tuesday morning as he took the jumbo, 72-year-old Harry, for a walk.

Christina Pretorius of Ifaw said the tragedy had raised alarm bells about the burgeoning elephant-back safari and tourism industry.

"Ifaw and its partner organisation, the Ethical Conservation Network (ECN), have expressed dismay at the tragedy.

"However, they warn that as elephant tourism becomes more extensive, the chance of more people being injured and possibly killed by the pachyderms becomes more likely."

Others have been injured

Bell-Leask said: "This is the first time someone has been killed by a so-called tame, trained elephant in South Africa.

"But, elephants in the tourism industry are known to have injured several guests and handlers in recent years."

He said the tragedy at the park between Knysna and Plettenberg Bay, which left the victim's wife and three children without a husband and father, should sound a warning bell about the dangers of this kind of tourism.

Bell-Leask said Ifaw and ECN recently launched their "Born to be Wild!" campaign to oppose the removal of elephants from the wild for commercial purposes.

"Elephants are rapidly becoming conservation's latest commodity with increasing numbers of animals being taken from the wild for lives in captivity, including the elephant-back safari and tourism industry, he said.

No laws governing training

"Training methods are entirely unregulated and therefore open to widespread abuse.

"No laws exist in South Africa to govern methods used in training elephants for safari tourism - trainers and handlers themselves do not require any formal training or education, and the industry is generating an increasing demand for elephants."

According to Ifaw, South Africa's elephant-back safari and tourism industry began with a single operator four years ago.

It has since grown to include nine operators, with at least 72 elephants being used in four of the country's nine provinces, said Ifaw."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:41 pm 
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I heard these Elephant Safari's are great. you can come really close to the animals. Not sure how well the animals are treated though. Also is it fair? Isn't it just like putting them in a circus?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:47 pm 
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Loams wrote:
I heard these Elephant Safari's are great. you can come really close to the animals. Not sure how well the animals are treated though. Also is it fair? Isn't it just like putting them in a circus?


I think after the latest incident concern for your safety on these safari's has become an issue. As I understood the newspaper article this elephant is used to people. It was an accident - the guide fell. It could easily happen to a visitor on one of these safari's. Back to basics - there is no such thing as a tame wild animal.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:56 pm 
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"Back to basics - there is no such thing as a tame wild animal."

So true, why not just stick with horse safaris, people always have to go one better, in my mind african ellies aren't meant to be ridden.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:50 pm 
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Freda wrote:
"Back to basics - there is no such thing as a tame wild animal."

So true, why not just stick with horse safaris, people always have to go one better, in my mind african ellies aren't meant to be ridden.


Horses used to be wild animals as well, long before our time, but they were...... Is it ok because it's been done for many years???? It reminded me of a discussion we had years ago. Alcohol is a drug and causes many physical and emotional scars, yet it is legal and socially acceptable to use it because it's been done for many years. Drugs on the other hand is frowned upon. Why? I am not pro substance abuse, but it is something that interests me.

Before I get lost in that. The point I wanted to make is that I have been to see Harry and Sally when I lived in Knysna. I have fed them both Oranges. They are two wonderful animals. I think this was an accident as the report claims. I don't disagree with elephant safari's at all and I think it must be wonderful. I also think horseback safari's must be great, but Lion attack is more likely then. Also, how about those ellies that track poachers? I do not see bad in this, at least a lot less bad than any animal in a zoo.

Are we not just having a knee jerk reaction to a rally tragic accident?

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 Post subject: elephants killed
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:12 pm 
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It is unfortunate that people are killed by elephants, but it is a risk that one takes to undertake that venture involving indeminities etc.

One human killed ...oooh shame.. - there have been many more elephants killed at the hands of man I tell you..

w


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 Post subject: Re: elephants killed
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:56 pm 
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wildjohn wrote:
It is unfortunate that people are killed by elephants, but it is a risk that one takes to undertake that venture involving indeminities etc.

One human killed ...oooh shame.. - there have been many more elephants killed at the hands of man I tell you..

w


In a way, I agree with you wildjohn. Human's are so far ahead of all other animals in our intelligence (and other aspects) that we should know better than to mess with 'wild' animals. However, the tourists who may go on these elephant safari's are often given a false sense of security - they are on holiday after all and, if their plane doesn't crash, they are otherwise relatively safe from serious mishap? Signing an indemnity form does not actually make most people truly aware of the potential dangers of betting close to wild or tamed-wild animals.
I know, I have signed enough of these and watched other, less experienced tourists signing them with a nervous smile but signing nevertheless without asking relevant, in-depth, questions about the potential risks. After all, these things only happen to other people don't they - just like the plane crash?

The staff who work with wild animals in Africa, on the other hand, often realise the risks involved but sometimes have little choice if they want to feed their families.

As far as 'wild' horses being tamed is concerned, they have a different temperament to elephants, making them much easier to domesticate and breed for their good temperament, as with what are now domestic dogs and cats, and are much smaller and therefore less likely to cause such terrible and usually fatal injuries.

It should be noted that attempts to 'tame' Burchell's Zebra (Equus burchelli) to take tourists have consistently failed, which tells you that not all Equus (horse) species are tamable!


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 Post subject: Re: elephants killed
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:08 pm 
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Tabs wrote:
It should be noted that attempts to 'tame' Burchell's Zebra (Equus burchelli) to take tourists have consistently failed, which tells you that not all Equus (horse) species are tamable!


They just didn't try hard enough! :)

Tabs I tend to agree with your insight there. But I also think that the tour operators should give some thought on this. Is this elephant a potential danger? If it is don't even try using it. Because I am not convinced that all Elephants are potentially dangerous.

Take pit bulls for instance, born and bred agression 100%. I met one a couple of months ago that couldn't hurt a fly. Harry and Sally (I think Harry is 70 odd years old and Sally died a while ago) have been there for years, and not a single incident. It is all in the upbringing I think. You teach a dog from when it's young to be aggresive, that's what youre gonna get. You take an orphaned ellie who's mommy was killed by poachers, youre gonna get trouble. You take ellies from the Tuli scandal, you are gonna have issues.

I honestly think most of these problems can be overcome by meticulously looking into an animal's history. But then of course there is always the exception to the rule.

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 Post subject: Re: elephants killed
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:07 pm 
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Loams wrote:
Tabs wrote:
It should be noted that attempts to 'tame' Burchell's Zebra (Equus burchelli) to take tourists have consistently failed, which tells you that not all Equus (horse) species are tamable!


They just didn't try hard enough! :)

Tabs I tend to agree with your insight there. But I also think that the tour operators should give some thought on this. Is this elephant a potential danger? If it is don't even try using it. Because I am not convinced that all Elephants are potentially dangerous.

Harry and Sally (I think Harry is 70 odd years old and Sally died a while ago) have been there for years, and not a single incident. It is all in the upbringing I think.

I honestly think most of these problems can be overcome by meticulously looking into an animal's history. But then of course there is always the exception to the rule.


Harry may have been a gentle, old and very well trained animal but I do think that you have to take serious consideration for the natural behaviour of any 'wild' animal - in this particular case, the keeper fell and the elephant surely reverted to it's 'natural' behaviour?
However well trained or domesticated, certain animals will revert to natural behaviour, in this case, stamping on and killing the human.

Whichever way you put it, Harry killed the keeper, and that should serve as a lesson for those who try to domesticate any animal which does not have a good history of domestication?

Asian elephants have a much milder temperament than African elephants but even so, tamed Asian elephants have been recorded as becoming aggressive towards humans under stressful situations, resulting in quite a few fatalities.

The bull-pit terrier analogy is very different - they have been seriously inbred, as have many 'problem' dogs, and as such, their temperament can not be guaranteed.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:50 pm 
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I think as long as man has interacted with animals there have been accidents. I had a school friend and excellent competition rider take a fatal fall from a horse. Dogs turn on owners as well as strangers. It is the price of the species living together. I don't think that this incident is indicative of the entire elephant back safari industry. Many of these elephants have been saved from euthenasia by being incorporated into the tourism industry. Some are from small game farms in Zim that no longer operate and others from circuses and zoos. I think they are much happier being in service in the bush than handbags and tourist trinkets.

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 Post subject: What made your hair stand on end?
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:12 pm 
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Having to go to the loo at 2 am (an outside primitive loo) and hearing a leapard pacing around a very "rustic" bush camp. Nothing like the sound of leapard in pitch dark, knowing he is the ultimate tree and fence climber.
Nearly spent the whole night on the loo floor... for various reasons

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